What Could Have Been – Insurrection and Democracy in Crisis, with Alan Jenkins and Gan Golan

[00:00:00] Sound on Tape: This podcast is presented by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. 

[00:00:07] Gan Golan: We have one candidate who literally may be running for the highest office. In the country in order to stay out of prison and that’s extraordinary We’ve never seen that before and that not only includes a single individual but many people who have been involved in the activities of that administration Which you know, there’s a huge amount of legal liability there and we also see that there’s been, I say tacit promises being made to insurrectionists.

[00:00:36] Some explicit that there would be pardons for people who’ve engaged in crimes to try and dismantle democracy. So we are seeing basically people whose own personal fate is very much going to be decided. This is really a battle over accountability. Welcome

[00:01:08] Scot Nakagawa: to the Anti Authoritarian Podcast, a project of the 22nd Century Initiative. I’m Scott Nakagawa, one of your hosts. 

[00:01:15] Sue Hyde: Hello friends. I’m co-host Sue Hyde Scott and I first joined forces about 30 years ago to help defeat anti L-G-B-T-Q ballot measures proposed by Christian authoritarian groups. 

[00:01:28] Scot Nakagawa: It was as true then as it is now that those of us who believe in democracy make up a supermajority of people in this country.

[00:01:35] The challenge is, how do we go from being the majority to acting like the majority? 

[00:01:40] Sue Hyde: We dig into strategy questions like these and prescriptions for change. We talk with expert guests and commentators whose scholarship, political activism, and organizing define the cutting edge of anti authoritarian resistance.

[00:01:56] Thank you for joining us.

[00:02:02] Scot Nakagawa: The theme of the anti authoritarian podcast second season is ready, set, go. Throughout, we feature people who are looking ahead in order to build today what we will need to defend our democratic freedoms in the near future. That’s why our guests today are the creators of One Six, a very provocative comic book that asks the question, what if the January 6th

[00:02:27] I know to many of you out there, the failure of democracy is tough to imagine, especially the failure of democracy as a result of a violent coup. But many pro democracy academics and political analysts are warning that the U. S. is no longer a consolidated democracy, making us vulnerable to widespread civil conflict and even, according to some, a civil war.

[00:02:48] So to clarify terms here, consolidated democracy is one that has strong institutions that are trusted by most of us, and that, as a result, in part, of the rule of law, at least in theory, applying equally to everyone. And when enforcement, of course, is not Equitable. Our civil liberties allow us to seek legal remedies for injustice.

[00:03:09] Consolidated democracies are also supported by vibrant civil societies that value pluralism and tolerance. And that, I think we all can agree, appears to be in relatively short supply here in the United States. Non consolidated democracies are marked by weak institutions, compromised rule of law, limited civil liberties, flawed elections, weak civil societies, and lots of political instability, very little public trust in institutions, all of which make us vulnerable to authoritarianism or collapse.

[00:03:40] With that little political science lesson out of the way. In an unconsolidated democracy, past norms will often not be a secure basis on which to predict the future. Instead, we need to open up our minds to imagine many different future scenarios and get ready for them. 

[00:03:58] Sue Hyde: Today, we are joined by Alan Jenkins and Gan Golan, authors of the graphic novel, One Day.

[00:04:07] It chillingly illustrates how close we came to authoritarian rule in America and the threats to our democracy that we still face. In the tradition of speculative fiction, from George Orwell’s 1984 to Margaret Atwood’s hand made tale to The Twilight Zone, it explores themes of autocracy, scapegoating, and violence.

[00:04:29] Strategic disinformation and more all told through a compelling character driven story. Alan Jenkins is a writer, a Harvard Law School professor, and human rights advocate. He teaches courses on racial justice, strategic communications, and Supreme Court jurisprudence, and is a frequent commentator in broadcast and print media.

[00:04:52] He’s also a screenwriter, selected as a Blacklist Google Screenwriting Fellow, and named a 2022 top 25 screenwriter to watch by the International Screenwriters Association. Before joining the Harvard Law School faculty, he was president and co founder of the Opportunity Agenda. A social justice communications lab.

[00:05:17] Gan Golan is an activist, illustrator, and New York Times best selling author who has been working for decades to help movements for civil rights, equity, and democracy. His critically acclaimed graphic novel, The Adventures of Unemployed Man, played a role in the Occupy Wall Street movement. He was a lead designer of the People’s Climate March, one of the largest climate mobilizations in history.

[00:05:44] He is a co creator of the Climate Clock, a global art project that counts down the critical time window remaining for humanity To act on the climate crisis. 

[00:05:57] Scot Nakagawa: So to both of you maybe starting with Alan, what was the impetus for creating one six and why in the form of a comic book? 

[00:06:06] Alan Jenkins: Yeah, thank you for having us on probably like all of your listeners.

[00:06:10] I watched in horror as the insurrection took place, the real life insurrection on January 6, 2021. And to be clear by the insurrection, the physical attack on the Capitol, but also the disinformation campaign, the fake electors that were sent to swing districts that President Biden actually won to try to unseat.

[00:06:33] His electors and to insert then president Trump, the strong arming of election officials, the threats to vice president Pence and many others. All of that to me was of a piece. And it seemed that even in the weeks right after that failed insurrection, we were already starting as a nation to forget what happened.

[00:06:55] And more troublingly to reinvent history. The insurrectionists themselves were starting to tell us that what we saw with our own eyes hadn’t actually happened, or that it was others who did it, or that it didn’t happen at all. And so I really wanted to make sure we were telling this story, and that we were telling it in a compelling way that could reach Every day people not just the story of what happened, but the story of what could have happened, how close we came to losing our democracy imperfect as it is.

[00:07:29] And also the reasons why it could happen again. I’m a Harvard law school professor. I could have written a law review article. It would have been read by tens of people if I was lucky, who already agreed with me. But I’m also a comic book guy. And I know I’ve been to enough, comic book conventions to know that there is a vast audience of people in that community, in that fandom who love our democracy, but, who are disengaged or cynical or maybe, not glued to cable news and understanding what happened and what could happen.

[00:08:04] And so a comic book seemed like a perfect way to reach A lot of those audiences, it’s turned out to be, and I immediately reached out to Gon, who is himself a best selling graphic novelist. I am not until now, and he was in, and we were off. 

[00:08:23] Scot Nakagawa: Are you have anything to add, Gon? 

[00:08:26] Gan Golan: Yeah on January 6th itself, Trump famously said, Remember this day forever.

[00:08:32] To his crowd as he was inciting them in the minutes and hours before they stormed the Capitol. And I think that’s exactly what needs to happen, just not for any of the reasons that he hoped. What we saw was a brazen, very explicit attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power to steal an election. It was an authoritarian power grab and it came very close to succeeding on that day, scarily close.

[00:09:01] And so we need to keep it. And since that time, though, many people have been individually held accountable. There’s been, a number of people sent to jail for their participation. We need to understand as Alan said, this is just a piece of a much larger set of networks that have been cultivated and that are still quite organized.

[00:09:24] Some could argue more organized than on January 6th. That have everything from participation of sitting members of Congress to a, an expansive set of funding that is coming from, billionaire funders to a whole host of you could say organic social movements to inorganic funded social media influencers that are out there that are still.

[00:09:47] That are very clearly have explicitly said that, they may try something like this again. And beyond that, we see an entire vision for how this country should be. According to them, we’ve seen from project 2025. Laying this out as a theocratic Christian nationalist takeover of our institutions.

[00:10:06] The danger that we saw on January 20th, on January 6th, very explicitly with our own eyes, is something that has persisted since then. The insurrection. Is not over. And so we felt it was very important to make this comic book to talk about not just what could have happened, but the dangers that are still out there and that we are still facing.

[00:10:30] Sue Hyde: So I’m really curious about the research that you must have done to particularly write the speculative aspects of one six. And my curiosity Also goes to anything you might like to share with our listeners that we don’t already know. 

[00:10:51] Alan Jenkins: So i’ll start the information was coming in fast and furious after we decided to launch this project about two years ago Over two years ago, and so I was very lucky to have two amazing research assistants Who did a lot of the real world?

[00:11:08] Research, in other words, looking at, Supreme Court decisions and indictments and the January 6th Select Committee report and really extracting both, the evidence of what happened and of what these folks had planned. We talked to a lot of journalists, including some who were there. We talked to experts on Christian nationalism and on a lot of things that fueled.

[00:11:32] This insurrection the anti Semitism and white nationalists hate the disinformation, the authoritarian instincts and values, and we really played that out. What is that going to look like? Those things haven’t gone away. And it’s gone said in some ways they’ve only grown since January 6th.

[00:11:51] And so we wanted to make sure we were telling a story that was just a step or two removed from what actually happened. And that is pretty tied to what could have happened and what could happen going forward. I’ll let gone talk about what readers might know. I have some thoughts on that, but go, why don’t you go ahead?

[00:12:12] Gan Golan: Yeah. We wanted to do two things. Number one, which was be very clear about what did happen. Amidst all the disinformation and attempts to rewrite history as Alan mentioned and almost a documentary style retelling within a comic book of the events of January 6th. But we also wanted to do this speculative fiction piece in the tradition of dystopian science fiction and really show people where this could lead as a warning sign, as all great dystopian fiction has been, to say this is the world that could happen and we have to work very hard to.

[00:12:46] To try and avoid and we did this, I think, in a fairly interesting way as a comic book, which is that we wanted to tell both truth and speculative fiction at the same time. And for those of you who are true comic book geeks, you can look at our issue number 2, where we really go into the events of January 6 and notice that.

[00:13:05] Some of the panels have these bright red borders around them that differentiate them from the rest of the story and those moments are actually factual moments, which we’ve done an incredible amount of research to back it up. As Alan mentioned, we have this incredible. Research team, we could have footnoted all of that in the comic book if we needed to, and we did that as a service to the public because right now we live in a time where different disinformation is rampant, where we see so called news agencies engaging in disinformation and misinformation.

[00:13:42] And so we wanted to set a standard that we don’t see very much, which is that make it very clear when we were. Telling a fact and when we were telling a story So that is a very easy thing for readers to follow along as they’re reading the comic book But it’s also a bigger commentary On this moment that we’re in where there is just so much Out there that is just false and misleading and from news Agencies to fact checkers.

[00:14:09] We are not doing a good enough job at differentiating between the two and i’m so Sad to say that our comic book might be doing a better job than some major news organizations In terms of making it clear to viewers and readers what the difference is but we do include a lot of factual moments in there That people may have forgotten, which is that to his inner circle, according to sworn testimony by loyal Republican Trump staffers, he admitted that he lost the election.

[00:14:38] That was been true since the very beginning. He knew that he lost. Everything from that point on was him intentionally misleading his followers, inciting them to show up on January 6th itself, where he famously tweeted, will be wild. That was the explosion. Sent around the internet through all of his channels to get people to show up in mass And in a way that was clearly wild and also just that he has been let’s be clear He was knowingly lying to his followers.

[00:15:13] Many of them are serving jail time. Some of them died on that day These people are victims just as much as they are, you know He Active participants in this movement who are susceptible to all this disinformation that is being given to them and and that’s something important to keep in mind that people in this movement are very much the target of all this active efforts to misinform them and then get them to engage in forms of A violence or as we’ll probably see Election Subversion.

[00:15:50] Sound on Tape: Hi there. This is Caden, the publisher of Convergence Magazine. I feel fortunate to spend most of my days working on bringing you the most useful, grounded insights from organizers and movement leaders in print and audio. And so much of that work is powered directly by listeners and readers like you. If you can afford it, please join the hundreds of subscribers who are making it possible for us to bring you shows like this one every week.

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[00:16:39] Scot Nakagawa: Gon, you created the Climate Clock, which, by the way, for members of our audience, you can go to climateclock. world to take a look at it, but don’t forget to read, because the news is not great. But the Climate Clock helps us to see how much time we have to save the planet, and importantly, What we must do to accomplish that goal.

[00:16:58] So you’re obviously the kind of person who thinks ahead. How did that work connect with your understanding of the January 6th insurrection and what we need to do to prepare in the event, another such event should occur. 

[00:17:11] Gan Golan: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for bringing that into the conversation. For those of you who are aware of the climate clock tracks, the amount of time we have left remaining, according to the best climate science we have before.

[00:17:23] At the present rate of carbon emissions, we are going to blow past a very important deadline of 1. 5 degrees Celsius average temperature rise above pre industrial levels, which is a very scientific way of saying a point of that. We do not want to cross. And we’ve been tracking that number for a number of years.

[00:17:41] And today, if you, for those of you who. I have a chance to see the video. The climate clock behind me says four years and 294 days. That is a shockingly short amount of time. That interestingly is roughly the same amount of time that we have of the next presidential term. So the next presidential term is going to be.

[00:18:04] Really be a major factor in how much progress we make within the time we have left to try and beat some of these critical climate timelines. And so I think it brings the issue of democracy very much to the center of our thinking about climate. A lot of times democracy can seem so abstract, but the truth is it is a life or death situation for.

[00:18:29] And not just our individual lives, but potentially for the planet, which affects all of us. And it’s not just the election itself that is going to matter. It is all the tools that democracy gives us, aside from elections, that matter. We know that the climate challenge, if we are going to have any success in limiting the climate impacts, on the world and all of us it is going to require more than our government to take action It’s going to require all of us engaging in social movement activity activism protests direct action all of these things because we know our government our democracy is already Significantly compromised by the very interests that are profiting from climate change right now the oil Gas industry has a huge influence on our government You And this going back to what you’re saying about our institutions being compromised and hollowed out this is why we haven’t made as much progress as we need to on climate, but there, the counterforce has been all of us.

[00:19:34] The climate movement has progressed, not because our government has been a leader, but because everyday people have risen up and pushed our government at the local level, state, federal level to move forward on the kind of climate progress. We need that. Requires democracy that requires our basic liberties and freedoms of free speech, freedom of assembly, the ability to petition and pressure our government even to engage in forms of nonviolent direct action, which historically have been very effective in pushing governments.

[00:20:08] Those are going to be required. To protect our future and life and stability a climate safe future for all oncoming generations and democracy is a critical ingredient in doing that. So if we lose our democratic institutions, if we lose the democratic space that we as the general public have to pressure our government, then our likelihood, our chances of pushing our government.

[00:20:36] And all and of course, the private sector to make progress on climate is incredibly limited. So the connections between democracy and climate change are very deep and very important. And yes who we vote for matters, but also our democratic institutions and all of our rights and liberties that go with that.

[00:20:56] are very important for making progress on climate. 

[00:21:00] Scot Nakagawa: And of course climate change will also drive big shifts in the way we are governed. And those shifts are also powerful drivers of climate change. The two together actually causes me to sometimes when talking to grassroots leaders, compare the period from about, right after World War Two up to the beginning of this century as a kind of political Holocene, but relative stability right far from perfectly predictable and fair weather all of the time.

[00:21:30] It’s certainly worse for those with the least protection, but relatively stable. And now it seems we’re stepping into something more like a political Anthropocene. a time of extreme instability and unpredictability when ordinary people can make a big difference either way, but while facing much greater resistance and risk for which we need to get prepared.

[00:21:52] Gan Golan: Yeah. Just one brief comment on that. We know that the history, the authoritarian playbook is very reliant on creating crisis and then stepping in to present oneself. As the solution to that crisis and using situations of emergency to dismantle people’s rights to sacrifice the not just the rights of people, but say, oh, there needs to be there’s going to be collateral damage.

[00:22:17] So certain communities, sorry, we can’t We can’t protect everybody. Those kinds of authoritarian type decisions were will be much more likely on a situation of increasing climate chaos, which creates this terrible sort of vicious cycle where increasing climate chaos, a failure to address these challenges creates the conditions for authoritarianism, which then, you know, as cycles back.

[00:22:44] To impose even more drastic costs upon on all of us while not side solving the crisis. And so there is a, eco fascist playbook that is out there that is perfectly willing to use the climate crisis the way to advance their aims and to dismantle democracy. And so that’s just another reason why we have to address the climate crisis and the democracy crisis simultaneously.

[00:23:15] Scot Nakagawa: This podcast is presented by the 22nd Century Initiative, a hub for strategy and action for frontline activists, national leaders, and people like you. 

[00:23:25] Sue Hyde: At 22ci. org, you can sign up for our newsletter, you can learn from our anti authoritarian playbook, which includes resources, on how to block rising authoritarianism, bridge across the multiracial majority, and build an inclusive pro democracy movement in your community.

[00:23:44] Speaking of the democracy crisis we’re just really a few weeks away. From the general election and the prospect of a contested election is on many people’s minds, and many experts warn of the danger of political violence erupting if Trump loses or if the Supreme Court throws a contested election to one candidate or the other.

[00:24:16] Having done Your research and published your one six. Comic book with speculation in it. Do you think that another January 6th like event is in the spectrum of possibilities? And, why do you think that, if so? 

[00:24:39] Alan Jenkins: I can start. Sadly, chillingly, So the answer is yes, absolutely. It’s within the realm of possibility.

[00:24:46] And, almost likelihood in the event that the election is close as we expect it to be. And Vice President Harris prevails. And, why do I think so? Because they keep telling us. The people responsible for the 2021 insurrection keep telling us what they’re going to do.

[00:25:05] They’ve changed the rules so that they can manipulate votes more easily at the, we saw what happened in, in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, they’ve been rule changes. They’ve substituted longstanding nonpartisan. Election workers who were loyal to the facts and democracy with people who are loyal to Trump they continue to plan.

[00:25:29] And all the forces that led to the insurrection in 2021 are still with us, the antisemitism and the Christian nationalism and the hate and the disinformation and the authoritarian values, and both. President, former president Trump and vice presidential candidate Vance have said that they are unwilling to promise to accept the results of the election if they lose.

[00:25:53] So I think, we often say this in this new era. When someone tells you who they are believe them and I think all everyone who was involved in the original Insurrection is making quite clear what they will do if they have another shot and many of them are planning for it 

[00:26:12] Gan Golan: Yeah, I would say to echo what alan is saying a very high likelihood for multiple reasons, but one is that this is not just an issue of democracy for for one candidate.

[00:26:26] This is an issue of personal accountability and not just we have one candidate who literally may be running for the highest office. In the country in order to stay out of prison and that’s extraordinary We’ve never seen that before and that not only includes a single individual but many people who have been involved in you know the activities of that administration Which you know, there’s a huge amount of legal liability there.

[00:26:51] And and we also see that there’s been, I say tacit promises being made to insurrectionists some explicit that there would be pardons for people who’ve engaged in crimes to try and dismantle democracy. So we are seeing basically people whose own personal fate is very much going to be decided.

[00:27:11] And so there’s there’s, this is really a battle over accountability. Will there be accountability for those who tried to explicitly. steal an election to overthrow our democracy to as well as a host of other, related criminal activity, perhaps, very likely around corruption. And so there is a I’d say a personal incentive for a number of key people.

[00:27:35] Within one campaign to win at all costs, because the alternative is very dire and significant for them. So the likelihood is very high 

[00:27:48] Sue Hyde: and it’s worth noting that the 2025 election certification date happens to be January 6. 

[00:27:57] Alan Jenkins: That’s right. And we’re expecting, our series one, six is four issues long issues.

[00:28:04] One and two are out in the world now. Issue three will be out in a couple of weeks and issue four will be out just ahead of January 6th, 2025 and part of our goal is to send a, ring a bell of warning, but also to help Equip everyday people to defend our democracy through mass action.

[00:28:27] We have partnered with Western State Center and created a an education, an action guide that people can download for free including by scanning a QR code in the comic book. It’s full of things that everyday people can do. Voting for sure. But not everyone can vote because they’re not 18, or they’re not citizens, or they’re formerly incarcerated in states that prohibit voting by those populations.

[00:28:53] But there’s still things that all of us can do to organize against bigotry and in favor of democratic values to defend free speech, defend our librarians. I never thought I’d have to say that. To defend our election workers. There’s a lot that we can do. All need to be ready to do because whoever wins the election in November, authoritarianism is still going to be with us.

[00:29:18] Those threats are still going to be with us and we have to be ready to stand up for democratic principles. 

[00:29:24] Scot Nakagawa: Thanks for the comic books. I use them. I actually share things from them with people, it really helps to be able to imagine yourself in the characters, thinking through the various scenarios.

[00:29:34] Really grateful for that. And thank you for joining us on the show. Everyone should go and check out WesternStateCenter. org. And get that action guide and people should be reading one six and all the different parts until you get to four. 

[00:29:50] Alan Jenkins: Thanks so much for having us on Scott and Sue and yeah, they, people can get the issues themselves on Amazon or at one six comic store.

[00:30:00] org. So it’s O N E S I X comic store. org. And as you noted that the action guide is free. We also just want to slip in we have a campaign. We’re sending free copies of the comic book series to every public high school in Pennsylvania which in addition to being the birthplace of our democracy and the first state to abolish slavery is one of the top states for book banning.

[00:30:24] And so we want to make sure that. This conversation is being had by everyday folks in that very important state. All right. Thanks a lot 

[00:30:34] Sue Hyde: Thank you so much. That is excellent. Thank you. 

[00:30:36] Scot Nakagawa: Thank you so much. Great 

[00:30:37] Sue Hyde: to be here. Thank you

[00:30:49] Hey, thanks again for listening Find more episodes of the Anti Authoritarian Podcast on all of your favorite platforms and also at 22ci. org and convergencemag. org. Direct links to these and other resources referenced in this episode are in the show notes.

[00:31:15] Sound on Tape: The Anti Authoritarian Podcast is created by the 22nd Century Initiative and published by Conversions Magazine. Our theme music is After the Revolution by Carsey Blanton and is licensed under Creative Commons. The show is hosted by Scott Nakagawa and Sue Hyde. Executive producers are James Mumm and Tony Esprich.

[00:31:33] Our producer is Josh Elstro, and Yong Chan Miller is our production assistant.