How Communities Organized Zohran’s Win w/ Alicé Nascimento, Jagpreet Singh, and Alina Shen

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build a podcast from Convergence Magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence Caden Mak. On this show, we’re building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win.

[00:00:24] This week on the show, we are first gonna talk about how on the ground organizing was a factor in Zohran Mamdani’s historic 10 point victory in the New York City mayoral election. Last week, I’m gonna be joined by a panel of leaders from different local organizations who worked on the campaign and learn more about their work and strategies.

[00:00:39] Then we’ll be featuring an interview that I did earlier this week with activists Rafael Kote, who has been part of the Venezuelan human rights movement for decades about how the American left can better orient itself and show solidarity as Trump aggressively pursues violent intervention in and around the country.

[00:00:56] But first, of course, these headline. Well, the government shutdown is over in large part because a couple of key Democrats caved just as they were starting to gain leverage and popular support. The stopgap spending bill signed on Wednesday just funds the government through the end of January, so I guess we’ll probably see this shit again in the new year.

[00:01:15] I honestly don’t understand the strategy here on the part of Senate Democrats sentiment about the shutdown seemed to be swinging strongly against Trump and the GOP starting again from scratch in February just seems like spitting in the eye of Federal Workers, SNAP recipients and others who spent the last 40 odd days navigating uncertainty and despair just to be sold out again.

[00:01:35] The Starbucks Red Cup Rebellion strike kicked off on Thursday. Over a thousand workers at 65 Starbucks locations are striking over the company’s failure to secure a labor contract, which they’d pledged to finalize last year. But under the company’s new union busting, CEO, who entered the role in August of 2024, negotiations have stalled resulting in the strike.

[00:01:55] Starbucks workers cite a need for better pay and more consistent hours as one of their primary demands with some workers claiming that they’re being capped as as few as 19 hours, so the company can avoid paying out benefits. So just a little solidarity reminder. There are plenty of places that also taste better to get your morning bean juice.

[00:02:12] Don’t cross the picket. In some final 2025 election results, Seattle’s mayoral election was finally called this week for Progressive Challenger Katie Wilson, who won a very tight race against moderate incumbent Bruce Harrell.

[00:02:31] So I’ve talked quite a bit on the show before about the details that have been missed by the mainstream media narratives about Zohran Mamdani’s historic win and the broad base of support that he’s built. Uh, but they be, they bear repeating. While his social media game certainly is some of the best that we’ve seen and his personality and quick wit make for a generational political talent.

[00:02:49] These are only a few of the many pieces of the combination of forces that led to his rapid rise from a junior state legislator to winning the election for the mayor of the biggest city in the United States. Today I am really excited to explore the ground level organizing in working class communities of color that mobilized massive amounts of volunteers to knock on doors, make phone calls and more to get voters to the polls for Zohran.

[00:03:11] I’m joined by a panel of leaders from three key organizations, including the policy director of New York Communities for Change. Ali, say Nascimento Ali, thank you so much for joining me today. 

[00:03:21] Alicé Nascimento: Thanks so much for having me. Really happy to be here. 

[00:03:23] Cayden Mak: Uh, the political director of Drumbeats Jug, Preet Singh Jug.

[00:03:26] Preet, thank you for making time today. 

[00:03:29] Jagpreet Singh: Appreciate being here. 

[00:03:30] Cayden Mak: And finally, the organizing director of Cav voice, Alina Sheen. Alina, it is good to see you. I

[00:03:39] absolutely, my pleasure. I’m really glad that we could get you all together too for this conversation. Um, knowing that New York is like the finance capital of the world, there’s so much money, um, that was poured into the race against Zahran. It was organized, people that really brought him across the finish line for this victory.

[00:03:57] Um, and I think one of the things that a lot of mainstream coverage misses is that this wouldn’t have been possible without decades of organizing and base building in the communities that your various organizations work in. Um, I wanna set up for our listeners a little bit how we got here and what the, what Zohran’s victory means in this longer story about New York City’s social movements.

[00:04:21] Um, because I think it’s, it’s, it’s is to me the missing piece, um, of a lot of this story and, uh, maybe jug Preet, can we start with you? 

[00:04:32] Jagpreet Singh: Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, we, we’ve been organizing in South Asian and Caribbean communities for, for the last quarter of a century and making sure that we’re building out leadership within our communities.

[00:04:44] And for years this has been across various issue areas, um, that have deeply impacted our communities. You know. Right after nine 11, uh, our communities were some of the most surveilled communities in the entire country with the passage of acts like the NCIS Act. There were, there were Muslim and South Asian men all across New York City who were being detained, picked up, uh, had to report to, uh, government headquarters in order to, to check in.

[00:05:11] And it’s from that experience that a lot of community members first started to reach out to our organization to figure out why their husband who went in for a check-in, hadn’t come back, why their brother who had gone in, hadn’t come back yet. And it’s really from that experience that we continued to organize our community to make sure that.

[00:05:29] We have our, we are building out the power and the leadership to make sure we can push back against these sorts of things, which has continued over the years, whether it’s been organizing to ensure that our folks are able to get driver’s licenses even though they’re undocumented, pushing back against unscrupulous, uh, owners and, uh, employers who are conducting wage theft within our communities.

[00:05:53] Or it’s against the current, uh, federal administration who are repeating many of the things that we saw post nine 11, where we’re seeing community 

[00:06:00] Sound on Tape: members. Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:03] Jagpreet Singh: And so on. This legacy that we continue to organize this campaign with organizations like Cab Voice and NYCC, who’ve been partners with us in this fight.

[00:06:12] Amazing. 

[00:06:13] Cayden Mak: Uh, Alii, what about NYCC? What is the, sort of like, longer background of you all’s organizing and, and what this victory means for you? 

[00:06:21] Alicé Nascimento: Yeah. Um, NYCC we organize in low income communities of color. Um, our members are primarily, um, black and latino. There are also a number of immigrants, but, uh, your viewers may remember.

[00:06:37] Acorn. Mm-hmm. Um, we are actually, uh, arose from the ashes of Acorn NYCC. We’ve been, um, in 2010 when Acorn imploded after a right-wing conspiracy against it, following the election of Barack Obama, where it had registered hundreds of thousands of voters of color across the country. Um, the right wing targeted it.

[00:07:00] Uh, Congress passed something called the Defund Acorn Act. And, um, acorn in New York then became New York Communities for Change, which is, um, where I organize and work. So a number of our members are still the original, you know, kind of OG Acorn members that have been organizing around issues like housing.

[00:07:21] You know, we were part of a, of this. Um, historic squatting campaign that actually people ended up having and ultimately buying their own apartments after a significant amount of sweat equity. That, um, led to the foundation of the Mutual Housing Association of New York, which is a nonprofit developer that we still work with and that house a number of our members to this day.

[00:07:42] So, um, so we’ve been in the community if, if you count that since it’s over 30 years. And, um, and that is the kind of organizing that we’ve always done. And, and particularly with NYCC, we have a very strong analysis of capital, right? We also wage a number of corporate campaigns, understanding that we are in the center of, uh, the financial world in New York and that a number, all, all of our issues are pretty much impacted by what goes on in Wall Street.

[00:08:11] So we organize around bread and butter issues and housing, and at the same time, we have a deeper analysis around how Wall Street impacts our lives as well. 

[00:08:20] Cayden Mak: Great. And Alina, could you give us a little context on Cav voice and, uh, what Zuora’s victory means for your organization? 

[00:08:28] Alina Shen: Definitely. Um, so just a quick, uh, uh, a little bit of background about me.

[00:08:35] My, um, first, uh, start with Cav was as a youth member in 2011. Um, and, um, I joined CAB because my family. Um, had immigrated to Chinatown in Manhattan in the 1980s and really was only able to stay in Manhattan because of rent control and union jobs. And so, uh, Cav, currently Cav voice currently organizes working class Chinese and Bengali immigrants into neighborhood based tenant unions in New York City.

[00:09:05] Um, our track record is, uh, around winning campaigns, housing campaigns. Um, the first fights in our chapters were around, um, fighting evictions, um, and keeping people in their homes. Um, and we, uh, you know, have since, uh, been able to build a across all, um, all of our, all of our communities, even though we have neighborhood chapters.

[00:09:32] Um, I would say just to your earlier point about the fi being the finance capital of the world, I think the thing that gave this, this, um, campaign momentum, um. Across our working class memberships, um, was that we, because we have decades of experience fighting, um, material campaigns and housing, environmental justice, immigration for so many years, um, our members and our leaders were trained in these fights.

[00:10:01] And they understand when a, a fight is starting to become cyclical. Hmm. So for example, for example, Cav, um, voice has fought to, um, lower the rent for 2.4 million rent-stabilized tenants in New York City, um, for, for years. At the Rent guidelines board, there is a bo that determines the rent for 2.4 million rent stabilized items in New York City.

[00:10:27] Cav has been at the forefront of this fight every year, some a few years. Um, under Mayor de Blassio, we won, um, a rent freeze, however. Um, I think in recent years we’ve realized this is a cyclical fight, and so our, because our members are developed in understanding who our opposition is, they’ve seen the landlord lobbies, they understand how they work.

[00:10:49] Um, they’re then able to see this mayoral election as a tactical fight, as an organizing fight in this longer term. Um, uh, uh, you know, really a battle to transform the, the, the, um, housing and rent in New York City. 

[00:11:08] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That like there’s a, there’s a deeper power analysis that, uh, gave rise to the commitment to this fight.

[00:11:16] And I’m, I think I’m curious about unpacking that a little bit more with all of you and like what your experience has been with your membership around building that kind of political education and, and how the strategic decision came about to endorse, especially, uh, early in the race. Um, and, uh, what that has meant for like then the way that you all approach, um, electoral politics within your organizations.

[00:11:44] Um, uh, Alii, do you wanna start? Uh, talk a little bit about, uh, that strategy and doing that political education with your, with your members. 

[00:11:53] Alicé Nascimento: Yeah. Um, well, just to, to situate ourselves in the time, right? I mean, collectively our organizations we endorsed were on, right When he launched on guys, was it October 23rd or 24th?

[00:12:04] I always say the 24th. I feel like I, I, you know, it’s like a date that’s cemented in my mind, but I go back and forth. But it was in October of, of 2024 when he was at less than 1% of the polls. Um, prior to that, I think we, we had all individually met with, uh, Zohran had a series of conversations and, um, really, uh, understood the vision and the strategy behind it.

[00:12:29] And the power of it is that it was not coming from consultants, right? Mm. Uh, this is a person who, you know, he’s been an assembly member since 2020, 2021. Um, and the ideas that he was putting forward has. Had come directly from movements that all of our organizations were a part of. So whether it’s the rent freeze, which NYCC has also been, um, uh, part of, with, with CAAV in terms of advocating for a rent freeze for New Yorkers.

[00:13:02] Um, universal childcare. We organize daycare providers who are basically living on starvation wages and who also can’t even afford a daycare in New York. So these, and fast and free buses, a number of our members, we have neighborhood chapters all over and in Southeast Queens, some of our members, it takes ’em two hours to get.

[00:13:21] Anywhere to work because the buses are effectively dysfunctional. Um, in many areas. There’s no subway access. So the, these aren’t, um, you know, kind of the, the vision behind what to campaign on and what constituencies to really speak to were very strong and emerged from, um, the needs of, of our members. So, and, and in kind of the greater political context, this was at the time where Eric Adams was, um, under investigation 

[00:13:50] Sound on Tape: mm-hmm.

[00:13:50] For our 

[00:13:50] Alicé Nascimento: corruption and was, I believe, I don’t know if he had been indicted yet, guys, was he indicted already? Yeah, no. But I mean, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Everybody knew that we had a corrupt mayor. That was kind of the gist of it, who was very vulnerable and who had for, I believe the second year in a row raised our rents.

[00:14:09] I’m a rent stabilized tenant. My rent has gone up under Eric Adams by I think, like $250, where prior to that it had been frozen. Um, and uh, and also at the same time we were seeing the Democratic party, uh, really aid and abet and be directly complicit in a genocide. 

[00:14:25] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:26] Alicé Nascimento: And ignoring the, the overwhelming opposition from both constituents and the masses.

[00:14:33] And nobody was speaking to that. And on immigration, like I said, a number of our members were, are immigrants. Same with Drummond Cav, we were seeing the Democratic party move to the right and talk about how they would also. Address the, you know, the closed the borders. And, um, they were, the strategy that they had embraced at the time was of some people have said MAGA light.

[00:14:55] Right? Right. And, and some of the critiques, which I agree with have also been, Hey, if you’re susceptible to that messaging, you’re gonna go further real maga instead of MAGA light. So it was, we knew that it was critical to provide an alternative message, still rooted in bread and butter issues on how we had an answer to improve people’s lives, but one that was, uh, not rooted in authoritarianism or um, or xenophobia.

[00:15:24] And I think that’s, you know, there were no Democrats really at the time, even the ones considering running, who were campaigning on a really bold vision around that. And it was very clear. Just meeting with Zohran that there was a, there was a positive message that was rooted in how can we make sure that government actually makes our lives better.

[00:15:46] So for, for us, even though political convention, I don’t know if Jpr and Alina, you guys feel like this political convention, looking back, it was like, if you’re looking at the actual numbers and the, the possibility of it, it seems crazy. But when at the time it felt like it was a very clear, for us, it wasn’t even something that we had to think about that much in terms of endorsing him, despite of the fact that nobody knew who he was.

[00:16:16] He’s young. And, you know, if you look at the field of candidates at the time, didn’t, a lot of people felt like he didn’t have a chance, but he was the only candidate we felt was really speaking with our, to our membership. 

[00:16:28] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Uh, jut Alina, do either of you wanna tap in on this? I, I am also interested in this like.

[00:16:33] When you are in this situation endorsing so early, somebody who like, as, uh, as you said, Elis like no name recognition, pulling at like 1% or less. Like how do you make that decision with your members? Like, what is, what is that like? 

[00:16:48] Jagpreet Singh: Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, to put things into context a little bit, if you, if you had asked me even six years ago what organizations like, like Cav or Drum have created c fours or would get involved in the mayoral race, I would’ve said, no, you’re crazy.

[00:17:03] Um, but I think that a lot of shifts have happened within the last decade or so in New York, which have made, made it make sense for, for us to get into this foray, into this field with the, you know, initial election and DSA victories and like, uh, with a OC with Julia Salazar, bringing in new contingent, kicking out some of our, um.

[00:17:25] Republican aligned Democrats within the IDC, which all which led into a passing of rent law reforms and, and bill, uh, bill reforms, good government acts that allowed for early voting, that allowed for rank choice voting. Um. With the push of grassroots groups who are doing a lot of this outside work and making sure that all these things were able to be prioritized.

[00:17:51] But I think a lot of us who were on the grassroots side also saw, in order to keep these victories, we need to stay within the electoral world. We need to stay within the political world. I think many of us will agree that in 2021 we, we, we made a lot of mistakes when it came to the mayoral race back then.

[00:18:07] I think a lot of the candidates who were involved within that also made a lot of mistakes. A lot of the campaigns that the left was backing either imploded because of interpersonal reasons or just the bad principle to begin with, and we didn’t unify, which led to four years of our guidance, which led to four years of cuts to libraries and schools, which led to the mishandling of the migrant situation and the hotels and all the way up to corruption that we saw with DOT Go and with Department of Health.

[00:18:37] We knew we needed to be in a better place come 2024, to be able to push a candidate forward. And, you know, I, I would say speaking for myself, I was, I was surprised and pleasantly surprised to hear that there were formations who were talking about slate strategies of bringing candidates together and, and doing it a little bit differently.

[00:18:56] But I think for those of us who are just a little bit more to the left and a little bit more situated in working class communities, we realized that we need to find the best candidate for our communities who’s gonna galvanize, but also be able to be pushed by our communities. And we saw that, oh, we saw that with Momani, that we can take, uh, issues like Kaf has been fighting for, for years around rent freeze, like, um, NYCC has been fighting for, for years around childcare and.

[00:19:27] Galvanized these in, in this platform. On top of that, the candidate themselves was, was invested within communities that we’ve worked with, was invested in issues that we worked with. So all of this made sense in a, in a very, we need to push our message forward level. But as we, all of us had conversations with cran, with our, within our community, within our bases, which by, you know, represent usually communities with the lowest voter turnout, the communities that get the least amount of voter contact, and they’re excited about this.

[00:19:56] Candidacy already told us back then that this was something different. 

[00:20:00] Cayden Mak: Yeah. One of 

[00:20:00] Jagpreet Singh: the things that a lot of the institution relies on is low voter turnout for these sorts of elections to make sure that their candidates are the ones that are being pushed forward. They’re afraid of higher voter turnout coming out, and that’s exactly what we knew, even back in October would be a difference within this race.

[00:20:21] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Alina, do you have anything to add here about, uh. 

[00:20:26] Alina Shen: Yeah. Um, I’ll just say I think, um, our organization, um, has, has a neighborhood based chapter in Astoria where, um, Zohran, uh, is Will shortly was the, um, assembly member. And so, you know, we’ve, we’ve worked with him, um, on, uh, fighting a luxury developer in the neighborhood.

[00:20:50] Mm-hmm. Um, we’ve worked with him alongside NYCC and drum beats around passing, um, and defending rent protection laws at the New York state level. And so we kind of knew how he responds to and is, is responsive to the demands of working class people. And so we understood hi him and therefore, um, when we read the moment, when we read the moment around, um, uh, mayor Adams indictment.

[00:21:19] Um, and then upending the political ecosystem and, and establishment. And then a month later, Trump’s election, um, victory and seeing New York moving, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so we were seeing all these things and we knew because we’re in the, we’re organizers, we are in the practice of transforming people. We knew that, um, the only kind of leadership that would win out for the left in New York City was one that went all the way for working class communities.

[00:21:53] Um, that would be the kind of race where we would actually be able to turn an electoral fight into an organizing one. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think, I think all of those factors, um, and also are, are, um. Ability to work with one another, like having aligned organizations, being willing to move together in an ecosystem, take risks together.

[00:22:15] Mm-hmm. Um, make, make, potentially make mistakes together. You know, like it was, it meant, it meant that we, we were able to, in many ways take political leadership, um, uh, back in 2024, um, and, and push and, and so, and, and we saw, we saw the success of that, of that approach. 

[00:22:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Well, I I’m also interested to hear about the relationships that you all have built with one another, both as individual organizers, as organizations.

[00:22:45] Like what is the, what is the work that like goes on behind the scenes and like, what fights have you been in together that has like built the trust to, to be able to take this kind of risk together? 

[00:22:57] Alicé Nascimento: Can I just say these are my favorite people? 

[00:23:00] Cayden Mak: I love that in the 

[00:23:01] Alicé Nascimento: organizing space. No, it’s really, it’s been such a joy.

[00:23:05] This is such a great question because, um, in, in spite of the fact that I think, you know, a number of other organizations that we work with were collectively, uh, um, committed to building working class power that goes beyond even our own, you know, individual organizational, um, objectives. Uh, it’s been, uh, when I think back to, for example, our endorsement process, which was like pretty extensive, uh, we had, uh, a working class members assembly where we gathered 

[00:23:37] Sound on Tape: mm-hmm.

[00:23:37] Alicé Nascimento: Our collective memberships in one room. And, uh, we went, you know, we kind of had a, um, a workshop on the political moment on what it meant on really, um, getting people to connect with what’s, what’s important to them and how could this election make, uh, be a vehicle for, uh, improving their lives and transforming New York City.

[00:24:01] And that just the working class members assembly. Then we had an endorsement process. That room had almost like 200 people in five different languages. Wow. It was translated simultaneously and. You know, I mean, our, we, like I said, we organize primarily black and Latino, um, uh, working class folks. And normally all our meetings are in bilingual, you know, English and Spanish.

[00:24:23] But to have that level of diversity and to be asking the question in a room of people who are coming from all over the world, but who ended up in New York City, um, and asking them who, how many of you have struggled to pay your rent? Mm-hmm. And ask them to stand up and look around the room at the different people that they haven’t thought about or wouldn’t talk to, and really across cultural divides and really building that working class identity.

[00:24:51] It was, it’s probably one of my favorite and most memorable organizing moments so far. I was really engaging in that process and like Alina said, struggling together and navigating the different dynamics together and making sure that we had food. That our members would all collectively, like, even if I meant different types of food, you know, but it, yeah, it was just so emblematic of what New York is and what it represents.

[00:25:18] And having that in one room was really beautiful and in many ways is representative of Zohran’s coalition. 

[00:25:24] Cayden Mak: That’s amazing. I like just the, the, also the tenacity of being able to sort of like hold people together, like that is really impressive. That like build, bringing people together across divides to see what they have in common seems like such a vital piece of the puzzle here.

[00:25:41] Um, I also wanna turn to thinking a little bit about, bit about, you know, obviously winning an election may feel like an end, but as we all know, it is actually the beginning of then the process of actually governing. Um, and I’m curious to hear from all of you about, uh, a lot of the things that. I’m sure are in motion right now thinking about, you know, the backlash that we’re already seeing, right?

[00:26:06] Where like these, uh, super PACs have run all of these wild smear campaigns against Zohran. Um, and that like a lot of the sort of captains of industry who are, you know, they’re clutching their pearls about these marginal tax hikes, they’re threatening to leave the city. Um. There’s a lot of work to be done to make Zion’s platform a reality.

[00:26:30] Um, and like, what are the, what are the challenges that you’re already thinking about? What are, what is the kind of work that, uh, your organizations and bases are gonna be moving into, um, to do some accompaniment on that platform? 

[00:26:42] Jagpreet Singh: Chuck Pritt, do you wanna start? Yeah. You know, we, we’ve had a lot of conversations, um, with a lot of forces who, who’ve done this kind of work already or who have thought about this because, you know, I think within the left we always wanna be critical, be learning, making sure that we’re speaking to, to our comrades around the world to make sure that we’re not repeating any mistakes.

[00:27:04] So, so we’ve had conversations with folks in Spain and Austria, and. Even closer with, with folks in Jackson who’ve done people’s assemblies 

[00:27:12] Sound on Tape: mm-hmm. 

[00:27:13] Jagpreet Singh: In the past and, and really have, have, uh, solidified that work as well as with, uh, some of the endorsers of, of Brendan Johnson in Chicago, um, who had to deal with a lot of the similar sort of, uh, pushbacks and, and threats by capital and landlords and how they’ve been able to, to deal with that.

[00:27:32] And we’ve always made sure to be in constant communication with each other, pulling in allies and like-minded, uh, individuals who, who want to continue to build power, who wanna build out the left, who wanna make sure the left is in place to govern. And also take this back to, to the transition team and in the future to the administration to make sure that we have a strong relationship and that again, we can, we can be critical of each other and we can push each other in the right direction.

[00:28:03] Because I think. With the type of, of of movement the campaign has been able to build with the type of movement that we all have been able to build. There’s a lot behind us there. There we have built, uh, some of the mass structures that are going to be needed to govern over the next four years. And it’s gonna be tumultuous.

[00:28:21] It’s gonna be a little rocky, but I think the more that we’re working in, in coordination, the, the more we’re talking and, and, uh, evaluating things that are going on, the easier it’s gonna be. I think we are all, all of our organizations are, are working together, uh, with, with some other organizations in the formation called the People’s Majority.

[00:28:44] And at the moment, we’re ready to push forward the top three planks of the campaign of fast and free buses, uh, childcare access for all, as well as the rent freeze. And then the main thing that we’re gonna need on the state level to make sure we get some of these priorities passed in taxing the rich.

[00:29:02] And I, for one, I’m excited. I think, I think we’ve built out, uh, some great structures and we have some great people who are working alongside this, and now is just our time to take this experiment on the road and make sure that we’re able to, to succeed. Amazing. 

[00:29:21] Alina Shen: Um, yeah, I’ll just add if that’s okay. Um, that, uh, I think t’s absolutely right that there, this is the time to start building, uh, the social movement ecosystem that had been so upended, right?

[00:29:38] Like, like the political ecosystem in general had been so appended by Zans Rise. Um, someone reminded me even five months ago that Cuomo was pulling ahead. Um, and, and five months ago. And so, so the, the idea that this candidate who is running on a, a democratic socialist platform could win over New York City is, is a moment where we are going to need to, um, step in and bring forces together and hold a counterweight, um, against all of the other, um, you know, finance, capital lobby, uh, and real estate lobbyists that are going to come for Zans administration, um, next year.

[00:30:23] And so and so, like I think to priests, absolutely right, we need to be building our alliance. Um, and we cannot. And just to that point, I think, um. One of the lessons from this year, um, we started off, uh, our organization and, um, uh, I believe, uh, statewide, um, housing Justice for All Coalition and the, the Drumbeats and, and my CC We started off the year with a picket, uh, against the largest real estate lobbyist group in New York City at their, at their annual fundraiser, at their the biggest fundraiser of the year.

[00:31:03] 300 tenants picketed the, um, real estate lobbyist, biggest fundraiser of the year in New York City. That we started off that year aligning forces in the housing sector against a shared target, and we got in practice of it. And so I think there are going to be moments like that, and now we have even more, um, enemies, um, that we’re going to need to demonstrate a movement response to.

[00:31:29] And so, so I just wanted to say that point that we as our three organizations, um, together, um, and, and also in our, in our own sectors, like we’ve, we’ve had experience of what it takes to align against, um, a particular target and that we’re gonna have to exercise that to a much higher degree in this next period.

[00:31:48] The other thing I’ll say is, um, we cannot lose, we cannot take our victory for granted. There are already going to be forces that are disorganizing the, the, um, working class base that we’ve built. So we cannot let, let up on our base building, on our organizing practices, on our rigor. Um, because at the end of the day, if we are relying on insider strategy only to win these policy platforms, um, we are, we are weakening Zohran, uh, you know, as mayor and also we are not going to win.

[00:32:28] And so like, I, I just, I think that is, that for us is what is ahead and, and, um, as, as organizers, um, looking at this, this moment too, as an opportunity for strategy, 

[00:32:39] Cayden Mak: Alicia, is there anything on your mind about, uh, the road ahead and, and making the platform a reality? 

[00:32:44] Alicé Nascimento: Yeah, I, I think the, the most challenging part of all of this, funny enough, you, you would think that.

[00:32:50] Of course. What, uh, I think what, what we were all able to be part of and collectively do in electing joran is, uh, what many would say, almost like a political miracle. But I do think that starting January 1st will, will be, it’ll be the most challenging part of all of this. Mm-hmm. And, um, and, and primarily because the system is not designed to, um, make it easy to actually really improve people’s lives in the way that we want.

[00:33:18] Right. And so, uh, navigating not just those bureaucracies, but also, you know, kind of making calculations around what, um, what is a priority? What is not the decisions that he’s gonna make that we’re not all going to be in agreement with, but what are we all still collectively building? And, um. And really being part of, like I said, of really a, a new project where it, it goes far beyond our own organizational priorities and it’s about creating something that’s much bigger and that is meant to be long lasting and kind of building our, um, our own individual, um, organization’s abilities to do that by recruiting more members, by building our base, by really making sure that we have that popular power that Alina was talking about in bringing the outside, um, yeah, the outside forces so that we are able to, to push this agenda through and to, and to have an analysis of who those quote unquote enemies right are and who do we need to bring, um, people to, that may be in opposition to this, but we like, we’re, so I.

[00:34:26] It’s unusual that I feel like we have quite like governing power in a way. Mm-hmm. Right? With an executive, like we have elected officials that have, are legislators that, um, we’ve helped elect and who are part of, you know, the state legislature in Albany and City Council. But being in an executive position in New York City is definitely going to be, it’s an experiment, I think, for all of us.

[00:34:50] But, um, but I, I have faith I should say, and like Jud Preet was saying it’s gonna be messy, but, uh, but it’s something that, uh, I feel like we’ve been primed for because we’ve been part of these battles for such a long time and because there is a strong organizing foundation behind this coalition. 

[00:35:09] Cayden Mak: Yeah.

[00:35:10] Yeah. That’s great. Well, I’m also curious, I mean, to that point about this being an experiment with having an executive, what is the composition of city council look like? What are the other sort of like elected bodies? You all, uh, have been able to, like, build relationships with over the years that like, are gonna be part of this and, and what is the role that these legislative bodies maybe are gonna play, um, in, in implementing this policy?

[00:35:39] So I know that Albany is tricky. I, uh, I used to live in western New York, so I know that Albany 

[00:35:46] Jagpreet Singh: is tricky. Well, I think all of us are already talking about, uh, being in coordination around some of the state races that are already happening. Uh, next year we have, uh, our, our assembly, state assembly and state Senate as well as the gubernatorial race.

[00:36:00] And I think all of these provide us a lot of opportunities to continue to shift our legisla, uh, legislature, continue to bring in legislators who are gonna be accountable to our communities. And even if we’re not bringing in new legislators who are accountable to, to our communities, we’re showing the power of our communities, our vote, the perception that, you know, the, the voting power that we’ve been able to build to make sure some of the legislators who represent our communities currently know that they are accountable to us and they have to make sure that they’re taking our considerations, um, into mind.

[00:36:33] Uh. Like, like I mentioned before as well, we’re excited to work with a bunch of our allies, um, in including DSA and others, uh, in order to pass the tax rich campaign in order to get the extra funds that we’re going to need. I think on the city level as well, we’re going to see, you know, this is an assumption I’m making now, but I think we’re gonna see a little bit more of a, a progressive shift.

[00:37:00] Uh, there’s definitely a lot of council members currently who have been showing a lot of progressive leadership, uh, have been acting in the best interest of, of their communities and have, uh, in many ways been the vanguards within, within city council. And I think with, uh, mayor Madani coming in, we’re gonna see a little bit more of that and a little bit more openness, um, around some of the, the priorities that we have.

[00:37:22] Cayden Mak: Alicia, Alina, do you have any other thoughts about city council, about, uh, state, state government in Albany? 

[00:37:29] Alina Shen: Uh, I’ll just say one additional thing. Um, I think. What, looking ahead at, uh, the real estate lobbyists who see that we won a rent freeze from the mayor who determines the rent guidelines, board’s political direction, as we have seen with Mayor Adams, um, the real estate is going to Albany and saying, we need to weaken rent protection laws, we need to roll back rent protection.

[00:38:00] Um, and so we’re seeing that we’re seeing the federal, um, honestly, federal attacks, both acute and structural to, um, uh, programs like Snap, um, and, um, uh, like really pumping funding into DHS. Um, and so, so like, I think right now what we need to be doing is trying to align, um, our city and state. To better support the conditions of our organizing work and making sure that we’re able to protect the people that live here.

[00:38:40] And so I think, I think the strategy is going to follow that purpose in this particular moment because of what we’re up against. Um, and something I like to, um, say is that what we have won, um, well, we have won and Elise’s right, like day one, where it’s, it’s the start of the fight. Um, what we have won is, uh, the, a different set of conditions in which to fight this larger battle.

[00:39:10] And so I, I think, I think we’re just really cognizant of that and also see the city and the state as, um, like tools or, or, um, ways that we’re able to move, move the conditions that we organize. And so, um, just wanted to offer that as well. 

[00:39:26] Cayden Mak: Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense to me too, that like we are also just living in a moment where like what cities do really matters on a national level and that like the leadership that comes out of cities, uh.

[00:39:39] Really, like, can set the tone around, especially these like national Garden ice deployments, like whatever it might be coming from the federal government that like, it means a lot I think beyond the, the city itself. 

[00:39:53] Alicé Nascimento: I, I was just gonna add, just the one thing that, uh, Caden, I think that you, you did mention around, you know, the governor and like Shag Preet was saying everything that we need with the exception of freezing the rent, which is something that, uh, Zohran will hopefully be able to do on right when he gets into office.

[00:40:11] Depending on what’s happening with Alina, you probably know more about this on, with Eric Adams and some of the maneuvers he’s attempting to, um, to, to do right before he leaves office and, and making it harder for, for Zohran to immediately be able to freeze. Freeze the rent. Um, but at least you know, organizationally, NYCC, we did endorse, uh, Lieutenant Governor Antonio Delgado.

[00:40:34] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:34] Alicé Nascimento: For governor. He is challenging his former boss, Kathy Ol. And, uh, he’s doing so from the left running on a platform around taxing the rich, uh, funding universal childcare, and, um, making sure that we pass New York for all, which Kathy Hool blocked in last session. And that’s a piece of legislation that would prevent ice from collaborating with any municipality across New York.

[00:41:00] And that would keep a lot of our, our, our folks safe. So we see this as a, you know, definitely an uphill battle, but a very strategic fight to pick. Now, since we’re considering the cuts coming from the federal government 

[00:41:14] Sound on Tape: mm-hmm. A potential 

[00:41:15] Alicé Nascimento: incursion, we really need our leaders to, to stand up for New York and to raise revenue.

[00:41:21] And we believe that the only way that Kathy Holle will be pushed to do that will be, um, through a competitive primary from the left. So that’s, that’ll also be one of our prior, one of our main priorities alongside the, some of the leg state legislative races as well, um, that Jacque Preet had mentioned.

[00:41:39] Cayden Mak: Great. Definitely something to keep, uh, for our listeners to pay attention to this spring. Um, those primaries are gonna be interesting. So, um, I also think, I mean, the other thing I do wanna ask you all about is thinking a little bit more about the sort of like national implications, um, and the opportunity that, uh, New York City has, uh, because of zans wind to sort of like shift conditions for your members, for working people in the city.

[00:42:07] Um, what are some of the like crises and opportunities that you’re sort of like expecting that you’re looking towards, um, maybe some stuff also that you’re excited about, uh, working on in this next cycle? Just because, uh. Yeah, I don’t know. The, the, the, the thing, the things that now you all are able to do in New York City that, um, will show some progressive leadership.

[00:42:34] Uh, I feel like, I feel like the, uh, the, the way that I don’t know, I, I’m always worried I live in Oakland and I’m always worried about the way that, uh, Trump and the, the like MAGA federal government is like coming for progressive mayors, um, is something that’s like, been on our mind to here. Um, but yeah.

[00:42:56] What are, what are the things that you’re like, this is coming down the pike. We need to be thinking about this, about this, um, that you now feel like you have an opportunity to move, um, because of Zans win. 

[00:43:07] Jagpreet Singh: This is, this is a little bit, uh, further out for us or maybe not, depending on how our, how our Democrats decide to do things, but.

[00:43:15] Redistricting is often on our mind as well as that’s often involved within redistricting. Even though we have a independent process, uh, within the state, it doesn’t generally end up being very independent and our communities are often the ones that bear the front of that as well. Um, who, you know, we, we work in a area, we, we’ve had a base in, in Richmond Hill, in South Queens for, for, for many years now.

[00:43:43] We’ve been large Indo Caribbean, Punjabi community that’s currently cracked amongst three city council districts, three assembly districts, so on and so forth. So I think building power there, I think tied to this as well is the various, uh, appointments that fall within the ability of the mayor, whether it’s the rank guidelines board, whether it’s redistricting boards, whether it’s library and parks boards.

[00:44:07] I think there is a chance to get a little bit more equity. Within how representation is seen within these sorts of boards and make sure that all voices, all voices are heard. I think this is an issue we’ve had for a long time all the way down from our community board level up to these sorts of, um, positions.

[00:44:24] And then the others, of course, as, as, as you’ve mentioned, I think as we all are thinking about is, uh, a militarization, uh, within New York City is, is ICE officers, is National Guard and these sorts of things that, that are definitely looming and have been a threat that the federal government has, has imposed.

[00:44:44] And we’re seeing what’s happening in, in places like California and places like St. Louis. Um, and, you know, even, uh, kidnappings that have happened in our own backyard on election day. Yeah. There was a ice activity not too far from our main office in, in Corona where delivery workers were being picked up right outside of the subway.

[00:45:05] So. It’s already here. And you know, it’s our, we’re working closely, like I said, with a bunch of allies and with the incoming administration as well. And I’m thankful for one, that it’s not the Eric Adams administration that had allowed ICE to operate out out of Rikers. Mm-hmm. Um, so these are the sort of things that we’re gonna thankfully be able to, to push back against.

[00:45:26] And we’re gonna have hopefully an ally within the, um, executive office in New York City to be able to stand up. And I think we saw a little bit of that already as well, you know, in his election night speech when he did clearly say to Trump, uh, turn up the volume and what we’re gonna do to protect our communities.

[00:45:45] The next day Trump was like, you know, we gotta look out for New York. So I think having somebody like Zan in office, but also the pushes that we’re gonna be able to do and the shifts that we’re gonna be able to make on the ground is gonna be very important. 

[00:45:58] Cayden Mak: Yeah, for sure.

[00:46:02] Alina Shen: Um, and I’ll just add, I think, um, I think just, just generally, um, we are just so clear-eyed about the fact that, um, the candidate that we worked so hard to elect, um, surround Momani who’s, who’s going to deliver for working class people of New York City. We understand that he’s going into a structure as a single actor and, you know, his, his, the administration that he’s able to appoint.

[00:46:33] And so, so I think we’re, we’re like, we’re under no illusion that the system’s gonna change. Um, definitely not. Um, um, you know, day one, like is saying that’s when the fight begins. I think that the opportunity there is that we already anticipate there will be. Crisis and, and you know, rit spoke to crisis of other levels, but there will be crisis crisis that that is, um, that will look like, um, finance capital punishing the administration and by extension the people of New York.

[00:47:09] Mm-hmm. Um, the way that they are currently. Right. So, so the, the members of our organization are, our, our three organizations are the lowest layers of the working class. They are, they are, perhaps the grouping that is being, that is, that is bearing the brunt of finance capital’s decisions, um, and, and moves.

[00:47:29] So they, they feel it in their rent going up. They feel it in, uh, Jo, their working conditions becoming tighter and more precarious. Um, they feel it in the safety nets that are not materializing, um, in this increasingly difficult, um, to survive, you know, in world. And, and I think, you know, just to even underscore a real example of this, um, I mentioned this, the, the billions of dollars in Snap cuts in, in, and I think for a, um, for a co it, it’s common that, um, elders live in rent stabilized apartments in New York City.

[00:48:07] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:07] Alina Shen: They’re on a fixed income and, and usually on snap if they’re able to, to be on Snap. And so in a situation where, um, the, they’re no longer able to access snap, um, which is the case for many of our members, um, because of the federal administration’s cuts. They’re going to need a rent freeze in order to stay in their home, because that, in some cases, when you’re on a fixed income, they’re, they’re putting up to sometimes a hundred percent of their rent of, of their income to rent.

[00:48:42] Yeah. And so, and so, these are all contradictions of this system that are going to be exposed. Some, some, because zans in office and others because of the world and the conditions we live in. And so I think the opportunity here is to. Because we are still focused on base building to expose the contradictions.

[00:49:01] We are doing everything right. Zohran is trying, you know, in, in, um, the election. Um, and, and at this electoral win, and Han’s promising to deliver more, more for people like, um, giving them what it takes to not just survive, but live, um, mm-hmm. And really live in New York City. And so he’s promising all these things.

[00:49:23] He’s fighting for those things. Who is it that is not allowing that to happen? And so I think it’s an opportunity actually to point out like who has, who, who is, who is, um, really, um, the enemy here. Um, and so, so I think, I think that I would just add that, that piece as well. 

[00:49:42] Cayden Mak: Alicia, anything else on this?

[00:49:44] About the crises and the opportunities of the moment. 

[00:49:46] Alicé Nascimento: I mean, Jacque Pri and Alina outlined it so well, we’re, we’re thinking about, you know, some very similar dynamics. Obviously a potential federal incursion. It’s, we, there’s been a significant difference in terms of what happens when we knock on doors primarily in immigrant communities.

[00:50:01] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. A lot 

[00:50:02] Sound on Tape: of 

[00:50:02] Alicé Nascimento: people, they’re terrified. They’re not opening their doors even with. Know your rights trainings, if you’re doing them in person, people are, are scared to come. So, um, one of, one of the things that we had done, which were resurrecting is that during COVID you had a very similar dynamic except because it was for a global pandemic, right?

[00:50:22] So, um, people weren’t able to go outside. They were also out of work. Uh, and most of our members didn’t have access to unemployment insurance or any of the safety nets that, um, people, that other people do. So, uh, we were able to, you know, kind of be parts of networks and build our own where. Where we, even though we don’t do, you know, like normally direct services, um, operations, but where we were able to make sure that people were fed and people were safe and that they had, um, a, a network and a community to rely on.

[00:50:56] And so, uh, we’re really, you know, preparing for that and neighborhood watch groups of the sort. Yeah. 

[00:51:03] Sound on Tape: And, 

[00:51:03] Alicé Nascimento: and just the other thing, and Alina you can probably speak more to this than than myself since you do, uh, more housing work, but just the, the contradictions of our system and, and particularly with the a rent freeze, right?

[00:51:17] And owners of rent stabilized buildings who are now being weaponized. Um, many of them, you know, there are, there are the like big developers that own a bunch of buildings and have a lot of money. And then there are some who are actually really struggling with property taxes, with utility costs and who.

[00:51:36] Whose stories are really being weaponized in this moment to say that, you know, Zohran and this is gonna like, be, um, be amplified even more the moment he takes office. And if, and when this happens, saying that, and particularly in communities of color like black and brown homeowners who’ve always been used as a weapon and some of our members are small homeowners, um, to say that you can’t freeze the rent or you can’t have any type of tenant protection mechanism because you are hurting black and brown homeowners.

[00:52:09] Mm-hmm. So we’re, you know, kind of preparing to be on the offense on that, but also making sure that the people who do need help, ’cause some of them do, are protected. And, um, that policies are also addressing their needs, but not being weaponized to, um, to be used against tenants. 

[00:52:29] Cayden Mak: That’s, that is really interesting.

[00:52:30] And I feel like. I see that kind of discourse all over the place also here in the Bay Area. Right. But like, I think it’s a very common way that people try to wedge uh, apart renters and homeowners and, and I’m, I’m very interested to see sort of what comes out of that. Um, well, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that we haven’t covered that, uh, you all want our listeners to know about the organizing that really like delivered this election and then, um, the way in which it was not just an electoral fight for you, but really an also an organizing fight?

[00:53:05] Jagpreet Singh: I think one of the most important, um, lessons to take outta this, this, this win is to be organized. We, we need to have foresight. We need to take risks and challenges, but most importantly, we have to be organized so we can absorb the wins of those victories, or we can absorb the risks and make sure that we’re learning lessons from next time.

[00:53:28] I don’t think any of this would’ve happened if. We weren’t already in formation if we weren’t already talking to each other, and if we already hadn’t lost a bunch of times as well. I think we took, we took a lot of the, um, the, the challenges and the lessons from those losses and converted into this victory.

[00:53:48] I think it’s important to, to reflect on that as, as we move forward and for, for anybody else as well who’s listening that it is, you know, the most important thing we can do at this moment is get organized.

[00:54:04] Alina Shen: Well said. Um, Jaret, I think I’ll just, um, build on that. I think. I think we are, I think the, one of the biggest takeaways is that we have to be really clear about our organizational role, um, within this ecosystem. We are base building organizations. We cannot lose sight of that, even if we are able to access more tools and more, more, um, yeah, more resources for the strategy that we wanna carry out.

[00:54:31] And so this has, this, um, clarity has, uh, been, has been, um, honestly, I think the through line of this entire campaign. Um, so, you know, all the way back in October, um, the fall of 2024, fall, winter, after the presidential election results came out. Our three organizations conducted, um, massive outreach. Um, at CAB in particular, we ran this program that we called Ear to the Ground, where we had hundreds of conversations across phone calls, one-to-ones meetings, um, where we were trying to deeply understand the reality of our working class base.

[00:55:14] And that is actually how we, uh, that is actually just how we were able to hold onto, um, uh, our organizing strengths within an electoral fight. Just always going back to meeting our people where they’re at and not giving up on them, even if the analysis and the data is saying we’re losing them because we, we are, we’ve experienced transformation of, of people.

[00:55:42] Um, we, we have that is, that is our work as, as base building organizations. And so, so like I just, I really just wanted to, to, um, underscore this piece. Right. Um, and, and one last piece on that, the story here is that organized people won over organized money in New York City mm-hmm. And the finance capital of the world.

[00:56:01] And the reason for that is because we treated this election, um, as being something not about representation, but about wielding the power of working class people in New York City. 

[00:56:11] Alicé Nascimento: Um, I was gonna say that’s, I think a beautiful way to end. Uh, but just to piggyback on what Jug Pret said that he said, uh, we learned a lot and we’ve lost a lot and it makes me think of, uh, aptly so, uh, the quote by the great Eugene Debs, who.

[00:56:29] You lose, you lose, you lose you lose until you win. 

[00:56:34] Cayden Mak: Well, El Alicia, Alina Jaret, thank you so much for all of your incredible work. Uh, thank you for making the time to talk to us today. Um, this has been such a like, invigorating conversation that like, you know, really taking the step, be step back and like look at what community organizing really can do and what building a real base can do, uh, for in, in especially in, in what feels like very forbidding uh, political conditions.

[00:57:02] Um, thank you so much and uh, I look forward to talking to all of you in the future as well ’cause there’s a lot more to come clearly. 

[00:57:10] Alicé Nascimento: Thanks you for having much for having us. 

[00:57:12] Cayden Mak: Yeah, take care y’all. Uh, we’ll be right back, uh, with my interview with Venezuelan activist Raphael Denki.

[00:57:22] Sound on Tape: Hey everybody. This is Maurice Mitchell, national Director of The Working Families Party. I read and give to Convergence because it has become a home for me to engage in critical analysis, find practical advice for organizing and strategy and inspiration in the belief that a better world is not only possible, we can build it to make either a one-time donation or become a sustaining member.

[00:57:47] Visit convergence mag.com/donate. You can find a direct link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.

[00:58:00] Cayden Mak: So as we have discussed already on this show, the Trump administration has recently focused quite a bit of military attention towards Venezuela, most horrifically, with these highly publicized and unauthorized bombings of probably small fishing boats in the region. While they claim that these boats are trafficking drugs, experts dispute the notion that Venezuela even is a major hub.

[00:58:22] Further the production of, or the supply chain for illegal drugs. This all raises the specter of another ongoing US interest in Venezuela. Its oil production, which has been heavily nationalized over the past several decades, and is built around the largest crude oil reserves in the world. We wanna help people on the American left understand how to align in solidarity with the Venezuelan people who are really suffering, uh, at, at the hands of our government’s aggression.

[00:58:50] To begin that conversation, I spoke this week with Venezuelan human rights activist, Raphael Kotei, his work in human rights movements for Venezuelan states back over 20 years, and he’s been harassed and criminalized by the Venezuelan regime for his work. He joined me from Mexico City. Uh, and I also wanna give a special thanks to Clifton Ross who volunteered as a translator for this interview.

[00:59:12] Have a listen.

[00:59:23] Raphael, thank you so much for making the time to talk to us today. 

[00:59:26] Rafael Uzcátegui: Thank you very much for inviting him, and he’s really happy to talk with, um, people on the left in the United States. 

[00:59:32] Cayden Mak: Well, let’s, let’s start with a little, uh, context setting, um, kind of at ground level, what are the political conditions like for social movement organizations in Venezuela right now, and what are the issues that left-Wing forces are organizing around?

[00:59:45] Rafael Uzcátegui: Gracia, first of all, you’d like to start off by saying that right now, uh, Venezuela’s in the worst situation that it’s been for social movement organizations, that it has been in the past 50 years. A good example of this is the left-wing candidate, um, uh, in the Marte, uh, has been in jail, uh, who ran for the president in the election of 2024, has been, uh, in, in jail for the past 10 months.

[01:00:09] And it, it’s really important to point out that the real conflict in Venezuela is not between the left and the right, but between, uh, authoritarianism and democracy. Um, the left wing organizations and social movements, uh, are, um, having to work in underground. Uh, they’re in essentially in hiding. They’re unable to operate.

[01:00:27] They’ve been immobilized. And right now there are more than a thousand political prisoners, uh, in prison. They’re from every range left at pe people of the left hand social movements, for example, they’re 20 journalists who are now imprisoned and 12 human rights defenders, uh, in prison. Many people who’ve been struggling for, uh, social justice and for, uh, human rights have had to leave the country, uh, and go into exile such as, uh, Raphael himself.

[01:00:54] And so the, uh, people on the left and people in social movements have had to try to reorganize themselves underground. Uh, just 15 days ago, there was a big campaign to, to do graffiti on the street. And, uh, five people were, uh, uh, detained for that. This is just an example of, uh, how difficult it is to do any of the traditional social movement work.

[01:01:16] Uh, on, as for the second part of the question, uh, what are the issues that there, that the left wing and social movement forces are organizing around? And so the, the principle, uh, issue that people have organized around, uh, on the left in social movement organizations is the defense of the constitution.

[01:01:39] Nicholas Maduro assumed the presidency for the fir third time in Venezuela in January, he said that he was going to change the Constitution again. You have to remember that in, keep in mind, that, uh, Chavez tried to reform the Constitution in the year 2007 and, uh, by referendum, and he, he failed in that attempt.

[01:01:59] It, it should be said that the most important contribution of the Bolivar Revolution was the Constitution of 1999. And the Constitution has been very popular among people on the left hand and, and all the social movements in Venezuela.

[01:02:18] And so he, he’s, uh, Nicholas Maduro is attempting to reform the Constitution by plebiscite. Uh, he’s calling for a new plebiscite and, and attempting to, to change constitution that way.

[01:02:32] And so social movements, uh, and people on the left, uh, have been organizing to, uh, around this, uh, attempt of, uh, madre to change the Constitution.

[01:02:44] Uh, and it’s really important that these organizing around these, the human rights issues in the Constitution, because what Maduro is proposing is something very, very different. And so what Nicholas Maduro’s, uh, proposing is, uh, the, the communal state, which sounds really good politically correct, but in fact it, it, it, uh, is uh, really opposed to a lot of what we would call the human rights.

[01:03:09] Traditional human rights also is something very different from, uh, what people have traditionally understood the communal state to be. And so this has been the real focus of, uh, of the left and, and human rights organizations, uh, to try to stop this, uh, process and this, these changes to the Constitution.

[01:03:33] Cayden Mak: Well, obviously one of the reasons that I wanted to speak with you is the increasing US militarism that is being directed at Venezuela, and I’m sure our listeners are very curious to hear from you about how US militarism has escalated these really oppressive political conditions for Venezuelas. The 

[01:03:54] Rafael Uzcátegui: first thing that’s important point to point out that you’d like to say is that we’re not in the presence of some, uh, the traditional imperialist, uh, attacks, uh, that, uh, people have thought about, uh, in the past or have seen in the past.

[01:04:06] It’s very obvious that there is, is a military threat as from the boats that are, uh, positions in, in the Caribbean right now. There’s just, this is simply goes without saying, um, but it also appears that there are, there are a lot of, in some indications that, uh, what is happening now isn’t so much a military threat, but, uh, really a hard threat of Trump to try to get, to get some negotiations going with Venezuela.

[01:04:36] Uh, when you hear a lot of, uh, left wing sources talking about what’s going on in Venezuela, you hear, usually hear that, uh, the United, that Donald Trump just wants to take over the oil in Venezuela and, and take control of it. But in fact, uh, um, the United States is already getting oil out of Venezuela.

[01:04:52] That’s not been a problem. Yeah. For example, Chevron is now in control of about 25% of the oil coming out of Venezuela, uh, thanks to the, uh, lifting of sanctions. Uh, it’s be, and, and according to some it’s not public knowledge, but according to some analysts, uh, Chevron is now managing about 30% of the oil that’s coming out of Venezuela.

[01:05:16] And they, some people say that Chevron is the primary supporter of the regime of Nicholas Maduro, and it’s true. And in the second point is that in the past, uh, couple of months, there have been 10 flights of de deportation of Venezuelans from the United States, and it’s been organized with the, uh, Venezuelan government and there have been more than 2000 people who’ve been deported, uh, on these flights.

[01:05:43] Uh, and, and these deportations have happened only because there are some channels that are connected between the US government and the government of, of Nicholas Meduro, uh, that it’s making, making this possible. So there’s some kind of back channel happening already. The the United States has two essential basic policies toward Latin America.

[01:06:01] The first one is, uh, stopping the trafficking of drugs, and the second one is stopping illegal, uh, immigration. Whatever action Donald Trump is carrying out, uh, toward Venezuela and whatever damage he’s doing to the Mado regime is simply collateral damage. So there’s no certain, no certainty at all about what might be happening in the next few, uh, days or, uh, short time ahead, whether there will be, uh, any kind of military action or some negotiation with, uh, it’s certain that the, uh, it’s absolutely obvi obvious that the, uh.

[01:06:36] The, the boats, the aircraft carriers and so forth, uh, are, are making the, uh, menace of a, of an invasion look real. But it, but when you look at how Donald Trump himself negotiates, he usually, uh, takes a really hard stand, a very violent, uh, stand, and then he begins to negotiate. This is exactly what Donald Trump did, uh, in Mexico when he announced tariffs on the country.

[01:07:00] Uh, he, he was going to, um, impose them within 30 days, but very quickly, uh, began negotiating That all just means, is, means to say that, uh, anything could happen in Venezuela. Nothing is, is certain. So this creates a situation among the people that, whereas is that, um, even though the people don’t want an invasion, the United States, they also are just absolutely desperate for change.

[01:07:27] And so there, there are all sorts of expectations that are, uh, being created by the situation and, uh, and anxiety, uh, among people. 

[01:07:35] Cayden Mak: I’m also curious, how has the Maduro regime been able to use this, these developments, um, to sort of like further their agenda? 

[01:07:46] Rafael Uzcátegui: Yeah, this is an excellent question because what it looks at from Raphael’s point of view, Donald Trump is actually, uh, going to increase the, uh, maduro’s authoritarianism.

[01:07:57] Uh, it’s not going to disappear. Uh, Nicholas Maduro is using, uh, this imperialist aggression to further his own agenda for, uh, greater repression against the, uh, left in social movement. And, and, and so he’s announced, for instance, that he’s going to, uh, take away the nationality, uh, the, the citizenship of any Venezuelans who oppose, uh, his plans just as, uh, uh, Daniel Ortega has done in Nicaragua.

[01:08:23] Uh, and they’ve also increased with security forces to the, uh, espionage of, or of the people, uh, uh, monitoring of the people, uh, through, um, electronic means, uh, like cell phones and so forth. And the third things he, he’s done is activate the Bolivar militia so that the, they’re all around the country, so that people are even more afraid to speak, uh, anywhere.

[01:08:55] And so this, all the situation has meant that, uh, the people are living in a state of, of fear and terror. Um, and even if the, the boats. Uh, leave the shores of Venezuela tomorrow, uh, this repression is going to be re, um, maintained and, uh, as a result of all this, Maduro will be seen as the great hero, anti-imperialist, hero, hero, and everyone will begin to forget about the electoral fraud of last July, uh, 28th and 2024.

[01:09:25] And so, Raphael’s personal opinion is that there will be a negotiation between Donald Trump and Nicholas Maduro. And, and Maduro will kind of give into the, the issues that Donald Trump wants, which is on the issues of, uh, immigration and the trafficking of drugs.

[01:09:44] And so part of this will be the negotiation, negotiating the 600,000 Venezuelans who are being asked to leave the United States. And, uh, and they, and they won’t be able to stay. They, they who won’t be able to stay in the United States. So they, they’ll be thrown out. And so they’ll be negotiated back into the country.

[01:10:02] This is, uh, what’s coming from the end of the, uh, uh, TPS, the temporary protective status. 

[01:10:08] Cayden Mak: Well, that, that, that’s, I think, I think that’s super helpful to think about the relationship between these two authoritarians and thinking about it that way. What would you like our listeners to know to be in deeper solidarity with social movements in Venezuela?

[01:10:23] Obviously, our listeners are very opposed to militarism in general, but are there specific things that US-based organizers should be taking into account as part of our campaigns against the Trump administration’s policies? 

[01:10:35] Rafael Uzcátegui: My suggestion always to social movement activists and people in solidarity with Venezuela is that they take a more of a horizontal view toward Venezuela and not the vertical list one.

[01:10:48] And when they, when they take a vertical list look, when they just look up above, they, all they talk about is, uh, what’s happening between Nicholas Maduro and Maria Corina Mago, or perhaps Donald Trump, I maybe add, and, and they don’t see what’s going down on the, uh, on the ground. They don’t see what’s happening among the people.

[01:11:05] And when they look down at the horizon, take a more of a horizontal look. When they look more at the, at the ground, down at the people, then they’re seeing more of what’s happening among, uh, people, especially in social movement organizations. When the elections were stolen on in, uh, after July 28th last year, the people in the popular organizations, the social movements, uh, people everywhere engage in the most important and significant, uh, struggle and fight of the past 25 years.

[01:11:35] On the 29th and 30th of, uh, July, the following two days after the election, nine statues of Ugo Chavez were broken down and, and pulled down by the people. This represented the most important rupture of the social movement and, uh, people down at the bottom, lower class and working class neighborhoods of their break with the, that’s to say.

[01:11:55] So what, when you look at the numbers, uh, actually, uh, they were, the chaves were expecting to get 5 million votes, but they only got 3 million, which say that 2 million people defected from Chavismo. There were 8 million votes in total. So that means that that, uh, 5 million voted for, uh, for the opposition, 3 million for child.

[01:12:14] What’s not really recognized outside of Venezuela is that the popular, uh, forces that, that status to say the lower and working class of Venezuela, uh, have a real, highly educated politically. The, the people have matured through their own experience. And even though that right now there are no press, uh, no protests in the street for obvious reasons, uh, the people are just waiting for the moment that they can come out again.

[01:12:41] And so what’s really needed right now is the strengthening of the social movements and solidarity with them so that they can begin to act, uh, when, when the time comes to, uh, against the authoritarianism of the, uh, Maduro government. One thing that really could be done right now is to bring up the volume on the struggle that the Venezuelans have, have been making for democracy and, and for the end of this authoritarian government.

[01:13:07] And also to ask for the legalization of traditional left parties that have been criminalized in Venezuela, like the, uh, communist Party of Venezuela. And what really needs to happen is tell the story of the people themselves and not just, uh, Nicholas Maduro and Maria Corina Macha. 

[01:13:25] Cayden Mak: I feel like we could, we could keep talking about the conditions in Venezuela all day because I feel like there’s so much that even progressive independent media in the United States doesn’t cover.

[01:13:37] Um, but I’m really grateful for the look inside, um, especially what social movements are experiencing in Venezuela. ’cause you don’t get a lot of that in American media. So thank you so much, Rafael. 

[01:13:49] Rafael Uzcátegui: Oh, thank you. Thank you. You and, and, and all the people from the solidarity. Uh, with Venezuelan people. 

[01:13:56] Cayden Mak: My thanks again to Raphael and Cliff for making the time to talk about the social movement left in Venezuela, and also of course to jug Preet, Ali and Alina for making time to join me.

[01:14:06] This week we’re gonna have links to connect with all of their organizations in the show notes and learn more about what they’re up to. This show is published by a Convergence, a magazine for Radical Insights. I’m Caden Mak, and our producer is Josh Stro. Editorial assistance this week was provided by Akin Ola and Kimmy David designed our cover Art Convergence Magazine.

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