Organizers vs. Big Data w/ Myaisha Hayes, Vivek Bharathan, Keshaun Pearson

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: What’s up everybody? Welcome to Block and Build a podcast from Convergence Magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence Cayden Mak. On this show, we are building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience and broad front that we need to win.

[00:00:26] This week on the show, we’re exploring local organizing to stop built. Building new data centers that form the material basis for big tech to deploy computationally expensive class war tech like AI and crypto. The data centers and resources that fuel these highly speculative tech markets often show up in communities that are poor, are already marginalized, and.

[00:00:47] That makes it hard for those communities to have a say on the impacts of their pollution and costs. But I am joined today by a panel of folks who are involved in organizing against these intrusive and dangerous development projects. My guests include the Senior Movement Building Director at Media Justice Myaisha Hayes, organizer with a No Desert Data Center Coalition, Vivek Bharathan, and Executive Director of Memphis Community Against Pollution, Keshaun Pearson.

[00:01:13] But first, of course, these headlines. To the surprise of no one RFK. Junior’s Health and Human Services Department restricted access to the updated COVID booster. The revised recommendations say that individuals under 65 need to be quote unquote, high risk in order to rece receive the vaccine. These restrictions also apply to kids who are under 18.

[00:01:34] Meanwhile, basically every major medical association in the United States has pointed out that in fact, a seasonal booster is the way to go here as we stagger through the pandemic’s emerging seasonal spike. We are in a late summer slash early fall surge just in time for back to school. While the FDA guidelines mean that people with decent health insurance and a primary care provider probably can get an insurance covered booster this fall, if you aren’t one of those people getting vaccinated, just got way harder.

[00:02:04] The long-term effectiveness kind of policy also means that each year the companies who manufacture vaccines will make fewer of them. Making long-term availability worse, and that’s the playbook here. RFK Junior isn’t trying to take away everything at once, but to put his hand on the scale of the market and let our for-profit healthcare system do its ghoulish work.

[00:02:24] If, like me, you do want to get vaccinated this fall, there are a few things you can do to get the job. First of all, see if your primary care provider’s office might be delivering doses. And if that route doesn’t work for you, for whatever reason, take a look at the entire list of quote unquote high risk conditions and see if any qualify you for a vaccine.

[00:02:43] It’s a much longer list that you might think. I’ve also been hearing that some pharmacies will just ask if you have a high risk condition without verifying what that risk is or asking further questions. Although this might mean that you’ll run into some insurance issues later on, though, it does mean that you can get the shot.

[00:03:00] Either way. Good luck. I guess this is a great time to start wearing a mask indoor in public spaces. Also, if you’ve been a little lax over the summer since infection rates are spiking in every region of the United States. You may have also caught wind of incumbent New York City mayoral candidate, Eric Adams being flown to Florida this week to meet with a billionaire Trump advisor to quote, discuss the possibility of a position with the administration should he choose to drop out of the mayoral race.

[00:03:28] In other words, a bribe. He’s being bribed. This is a conspiracy to manipulate an election through bribery happening out in the open. As we know, Trump has publicly stated that he wants all candidates aside from Cuomo to drop out of the race in order to create a chance to stop Zahran Mandani from winning in a fair election.

[00:03:48] I don’t need to parse every detail of this conspiratorial activity to make the point that this is the oligarchy very aggressively, perhaps over confidently showing their hand that they will always organize around their own class Solidarity. The point of leverage that we might have here is that this level of open air corruption and class organizing among the rich hasn’t ever happened quite this obviously, and frankly stupidly across party lines with Adams and Cuomo being Democrats, whom the far right MAGA coalition are putting their money in bribes behind against a Democratic primary winner.

[00:04:23] It doesn’t take much conspiratorial dot connecting for the average voter to understand what’s going on here. A vote for anyone other than Zoran is a vote for Trump and the MAGA agenda. It seems that November’s general election in New York will be the first of many referenda to come on. How much voters are willing to put up with.

[00:04:42] From such open air corruption. 

[00:04:46] Sound on Tape: Hey everybody. This is Maurice Mitchell, national Director of The Working Families Party. I read and give to Convergence because it has become a home for me to engage in critical analysis, find practical advice for organizing and strategy and inspiration in the belief that a better world is not only possible.

[00:05:06] We can build it to make either a one-time donation or become a sustaining member. Visit convergence mag.com/donate. You can find a direct link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.

[00:05:25] Cayden Mak: Those folks who are pushing AI as this inevitable arms race are currently winning the mainstream narrative around big data. You’ll find very little critique of the AI bubble and its very real. Costs in mainstream media and publications like The Washington Post have even gone so far as to critique the critiques of AI’s environmental impact.

[00:05:46] Meanwhile, US Secretary of Energy, climate Change denier and former Natural Gas Company exec, who you might know as having famously drank fracking water to just demonstrate its supposed safety. Chris Wright had this to say about the AI arms race earlier this week. At its 

[00:06:03] Sound on Tape: essence, artificial intelligence takes electricity and turns it into intelligence empowering Americans.

[00:06:12] Cayden Mak: But more and more people are noticing the negative impact of these huge new data centers in their communities, which all this AI fever relies on. Whether it’s hidden in their soaring energy bills, which offset the cost of multi-billion dollar corporations that are leaching off the local grid or the impact on the environment and health of their community.

[00:06:31] Organizers have been working at the local level to push back on this demand for more polluting data centers in city and county governments, which often have direct power over who builds what. Today I am joined by a panel of organizers who are part of this new front in the struggle against Big Tech to discuss the proliferation of these data centers and the strategies that you can deploy in your community to fight back.

[00:06:54] My guest includes Senior Movement Building Director at Media Justice Myaisha Hayes Myaisha. Thank you so much for joining us today. 

[00:07:01] Myaisha Hayes: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

[00:07:03] Cayden Mak: We’ve also got an organizer with a No Desert Data Center Coalition in Tucson, Arizona vi, Vivek Bar. Vivek. It’s good to see you. 

[00:07:11] Vivek Bharathan: You too, Cayden. Hi, 

[00:07:13] Cayden Mak: And the executive Director of Memphis Community Against Pollution, Keshaun Pearson.

[00:07:16] Keshaun, thank you for joining us. Thank you all for having me. Awesome. I wanna start out by grounding our listeners in each of your personal experiences in data center organizing. Maybe we’ll start with Shaw and Vivek. Could you tell us where your organizing is based? And so a brief background of the local impact that you’ve been seeing from these data centers.

[00:07:37] And we’ll start with you ke. 

[00:07:39] Keshaun Pearson: Awesome. Thank you so much. And I’m glad to be here with this Esteem Panel. The work Myaisha and the work Vivek have done in this space. Has literally transformed my experience and my knowledge. And here in Memphis as the name says, Memphis Community Against Pollution is where our story began.

[00:07:58] And it started June 5th, 2024 when the XAI project was announced by Elon Musk via our greater Memphis Chamber here in the city of Memphis. Now I learned about the project directly from the mayor of the city as we discussed an environmental plan for our city to make it healthier. And unfortunately, the plan did not come to fruition.

[00:08:21] But the XAI. Plans continue to evolve and to grow bigger. So we see where the priority shifted. And so for us, we have been in this fight against XAI and the consistent use of methane gas turbines that emit ethylene oxide, not ethylene oxide, but they admit nitrogen oxide, which contributes to smog at extremely high levels.

[00:08:44] In addition to that they continue to buy up land. 522 acres. They purchased another 13 acres purchased from our city to build a water reuse facility. And then another million square foot facility for Colossus two. And this project is continuing to expand, continue to pollute even more.

[00:09:02] And more recently we found out they got 66 methane gas turbines that have been purchased for the use of the Colossus two facility. So we are fighting a continuing ever-growing air quality issue. The city of Memphis and Shelby County has received an upgrade as it pertains to ozone levels for nearly a decade at this point.

[00:09:23] And so for several years we’ve seen nitrogen oxide continue to grow as well as the asthma rates. The cancer rates, the emergency rates for our youth in the area as well. And so it’s a fight that has been longstanding because it started even before XAI with sterilization serves of Tennessee and the Alia connection pipeline which we were successful in defeating.

[00:09:46] And we won in the past and all it took. People across the city, people across race, gender, across financial and economic lines to stand together against the folks who are oppressing us and extracting the wealth and the health from us. 

[00:10:06] Cayden Mak: Amazing. And I imagine a lot of that previous environmental justice organizing you’ve been doing has been instrumental to driving the campaign against X ai.

[00:10:15] Keshaun Pearson: Yes, listen everything revolves around what you have done lately. And so when you are consistently doing what is right, it is far easier for folks to work with you and support what that looks like. And so the organizing we’ve done around serialization services. Tennessee and reducing the ethylene oxide emission levels across the country via the EPAs regulation, the shutting down of the crude oil pipeline project, the Baal Connection Pipeline.

[00:10:46] The fastest shutdown of a pipeline project in history led by a black community, right? Nine months. And so we’ve seen wins consistently and we don’t plan for that to stop. 

[00:10:58] Cayden Mak: Amazing. Yvette, could you tell us a little bit about what’s been going on in Tucson and how you got involved with fighting a data center there?

[00:11:05] Vivek Bharathan: Yeah, absolutely. So our story kind of starts in June when a bunch of us found out that there was going to be a data center constructed in Pima County just east of Tucson and 290 acres of land. And that’s a number, right? And I’ll get back to that in a second here, but, a lot of us were primed for this in different ways. There was the knowledge about how much water it would consume how much power it would push our energy costs up, and also just the process of how it was like held in secret with NDAs. So we showed up to a Pima County Board of Supervisors meeting in June.

[00:11:41] Where they were voting on whether or not to sell the land to the developer to build the data center. And unfortunately, at that meeting they ended up voting three to two in favor of selling. Now that vote, came during that meeting when I just like talk. I want to talk about the dynamics of that meeting because it sets up the process too, which is the developer had ample opportunity to speak at length.

[00:12:08] The TEP, which is our electric power company, is a private company and Tucson Water, which provides water services to the public is a public utility. They were all on board with this plan to build a data center Beal Infrastructure, which is the company that was developing the project, had representatives there to speak.

[00:12:27] The lawyer who was representing them also spoke at length, gave a really shitty PowerPoint presentation and. What I noticed in the room was that just everyone who had the chance to speak in favor of the project was able to do so at length, was able to receive and answer questions from the board of supervisors and was paid to be there, right?

[00:12:50] Like everyone there, this was their job to be there. And if not everyone, and certainly close to everyone there was white. And that, that was some things I noticed in the room. And when we had a chance to speak, right? It was all community members, all of us there because we were galvanized around this issue because we knew what it meant for the environment and for our for our wallets.

[00:13:15] And we, we had, each of us had two minutes to speak. We’re not public speakers. We’re community members. We did our best and it was clear that the board of supervisors already had their minds made up. 

[00:13:27] There was one supervisor, Rebecca Allen, who had done her research, spoke really eloquently about why this was a terrible idea, had actually talked to officials all over the country about their experiences with these data centers.

[00:13:40] And so after that it was like, okay, I guess this is a campaign now, right? Because we knew that in order to serve the water that they need, the enormous amount of water that they need in a desert that the Tucson City Council would have. To annex the land into Tucson City limits. It was currently county land.

[00:14:00] So that was our next point of intervention. We came together as a diverse coalition of individuals. We were not organization supported. Like I said, none of us was paid to, to do this work. We were all doing this because we care for our community, we care for each other, we care for our families, and.

[00:14:17] These were some of the easiest conversations I had. Like it was like, it was we just went to, we went to protests, we went to events that were already organized. We talked to people. And we were like, Hey, this is happening. And everyone literally within 15 to 30 seconds, they either already knew about it and thought it was a terrible idea, or they were like, yeah, that’s a terrible idea.

[00:14:39] Let’s not do that in the desert. 

[00:14:42] Sound on Tape: Sure.

[00:14:43] Vivek Bharathan: Yeah. It was really that easy. And so like we, we managed the Tucson. The county ran this process for the board of supervisors, the bureaucratic side of the county, the administration. Let me know if I should stop, ’cause I could probably go onto the entire hour about this.

[00:14:58] And at the county and city levels, the bureaucracy, the management side of things really put. Framed everything for the elected officials in a way that represented the corporate corporation’s interests and the developer’s interests. Yeah. There was nothing there about an environmental assessment.

[00:15:14] There was nothing there like about like how this would affect jobs. There was nothing there about. The impact of AI in general. It was all just corporate propaganda for the developer and when, yeah, 

[00:15:28] Cayden Mak: and I think what’s interesting about that is like what I’m hearing from your story is the thing that you were able to do as a coalition was like intervene on the way that people who are already against this see the levers of power that are available to them as just like everyday people and like turning the tables in that way.

[00:15:47] Vivek Bharathan: That’s exactly right. So they had these public information sessions, which were really just propaganda sessions where the developer got to tell their side of the story and we got to ask questions. So we went there and we got loud, right? We made sure that they knew that the community was against.

[00:16:02] And through that work we convinced Tucson City Council to vote no. And they voted no to Annex. And that was a huge win for us. That was last month. And I gotta tell you, like we’re still, even though the bad news is coming right? But we’re still writing that high in many ways. ’cause it was Sure.

[00:16:17] Such a huge effort. It. Seven week sprint. And a couple, like last week or the week before, we found out that the developer has another deal with TEP the electric company, the private utility, right? They can do whatever they want. And they are going to try to get into an agreement now to build the data center on that same site.

[00:16:36] And they want to, instead of using the water, I guess they’re going to air cool it which is even more power, right? Yeah. Then like one, one thing we learned on this journey, like from our neighbors in Phoenix is data centers in Phoenix are responsible for 94%. Of the increased energy use. 

[00:16:54] Sound on Tape: Wow. 

[00:16:55] Vivek Bharathan: Yet con yet the comp, the power company goes to the Arizona Corporation Commission asks for a rate hike because of increased demand and the corporation commission consistently gives them the rate hike they’re at, they’re asking for.

[00:17:06] Wow. So consumers end up. Subsidizing these power. Sure. These data centers power consumption, and we knew that would happen here. And if this thing gets built, that’s exactly what’s going to happen. Our power bills are going to go up. People die when that happens because they can’t afford to run their AC when it’s 114 degrees outside.

[00:17:23] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:17:23] Vivek Bharathan: Literally

[00:17:24] Cayden Mak: That is, it’s just like the effects are like just like layered and layered, like compounding the things that people are already struggling with. I wanna tap in Myaisha here to talk a little bit about how you all got involved in supporting data center organizing and how it fits into media justice’s bigger strategic goals.

[00:17:43] Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about the work that you’ve been doing and what you’re tracking at the national level? 

[00:17:48] Myaisha Hayes: Sure. When I joined Media Justice, I was actually an organizer on criminal justice and tech. I joined Media Justice about eight years ago, and what was happening at that time in the country are incredible.

[00:18:03] Protests, fights against police brutality police murders and criminalization and black and brown communities, and people were winning, right? Like they were winning cash bail reforms. They were winning jail closures. They were winning policies to keep our communities safe from, police violence and.

[00:18:22] The narrative that communities on the ground were receiving was that in order to fix our crisis of mass incarceration, here’s this technology to make prisons and jails and policing a little bit more humane. And we kicked off a number of fights to. Ban the police use of facial recognition, inform people of the dangers of predictive policing or risk assessments in the cash bail system to fight this propaganda, that technology, can save us.

[00:18:53] But as we were, leading on those fights, we are discovering that it’s not just, local governments and police. Departments that we have to fight. It’s also the companies that are manufacturing and developing this dangerous surveillance technology to the police to ve and criminalize our communities.

[00:19:11] But, as much as those fights are, still really important to us. There was a real understanding that in order to curtail and abolish the use of that surveillance technology, we also have to pay closer attention to the infrastructure that allows for all of this technology to exist, which is how we, got into data centers.

[00:19:33] But I do wanna pick up on, on what Vivek was saying about, the propaganda and 

[00:19:37] Alluded to this, in the introduction that tech companies are very much dominating the narrative around ai. And, we’ve been inundated with narratives from the last few years that we need to win this AI race.

[00:19:54] That the United States must lead the world in innovation and dominate technology to further cement our global influence and empower so that our rivals and enemies in China don’t take over the world and. I think especially over the summer with the executive orders and additional announcements, Trump and the Tech Bros and the oligarchy have really positioned this AI race as this sort of, in my opinion, this nationalist endeavor.

[00:20:24] And anyone who wants regulations, anyone who wants protections against this technology is framed as anti-tech. 

[00:20:31] Sound on Tape: By 

[00:20:31] Myaisha Hayes: innovation. And in a strange way, also like anti-American, right? Yeah. And so meanwhile you have tech CEOs and venture capitalists and investors looking for the next, big thing, looking for the next big innovation to cash in on.

[00:20:49] And so you have all these companies competing with one another to build more AI to integrate AI in our everyday lives. But all of this infrastructure cannot exist without. All of this technology cannot exist with the infrastructure without the computational power, which means that communities are seeing not just data centers, but these massive hyperscale data centers that we know.

[00:21:13] Drain our water, pollute our air, and gobble up, an enormous amount of land. And so all of this is really a strategy. I think these local fights demonstrate that this is a strategy to, to concentrate. We wealth and consolidate power amongst a small group of people who wanna maintain even greater control over our technology and our futures.

[00:21:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah, it strikes me that so much of this is. Tuned, it’s like a corporate playbook that we’ve seen before in terms of putting the greater burden of like environmental cost on like communities of color and certain rural communities and like people that corporations think they can get away with saddling with these burdens.

[00:21:57] But it’s like coupled with this wild nationalist rhetoric. And I think one of the interesting things about this fight over who go, who owns our tech? What is the like physical infrastructure on which it’s built, touches so many issue areas that you’re talking about, that are about, how do we prevent great power competition with China?

[00:22:17] How do we prevent unjust environmental impacts that like, those things are like connected through this issue in a way that I find to be fascinating and deeply relevant I think regardless of where you sit in relation to big tech. 

[00:22:32] Myaisha Hayes: Yeah. And I find the narratives fascinating as well.

[00:22:35] Just again, given my background and like surveillance and criminalization, right? Like we’re being inundated with narratives, that this is for the public good, that this is for progress. And at the same time as I’m talking to folks who are facing data center fights, they’re talking about. Like more bills to approve the use of facial recognition, more automated license plate readers.

[00:22:59] More like techno surveillance technology. And I just don’t think it’s a coincidence that this stuff is popping up so aggressively at the precise same time that you’re seeing the infrastructure also expanding and being built out. 

[00:23:13] Cayden Mak: Yeah, the big thing here in Oakland right now is.

[00:23:16] Oakland Police Department’s relationship with Flock. The automated license plate reader. And it’s wild. ’cause I was like, didn’t we fight this fight like similarly, like years ago, right?

[00:23:25] Myaisha Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. Everything is new 

[00:23:27] Cayden Mak: again. 

[00:23:28] Myaisha Hayes: Yeah. You guys did. And so many other cities did successfully.

[00:23:32] Ban, these surveillance technologies. But because the political climate has changed and now that, tech companies can do whatever they want, we’re seeing a real backslide on all of those. Ordinances policies that were meant to protect people. A few years ago we had this big win.

[00:23:49] Amazon announced that they were no longer letting police use, ring footage, this like 

[00:23:54] Secret portal that they had access to. And then over the summer, who do you see again, Amazon original CEO announcing this partnership again. And I just can’t believe that these things are coincidence.

[00:24:07] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Sean, do you have something to 

[00:24:09] Myaisha Hayes: tap in there? 

[00:24:10] Keshaun Pearson: Yeah, I was just gonna say one thing about the propaganda machine that is, is painting artificial intelligence, which I have a name, I have a ick about the name anyway, because

[00:24:20] Cayden Mak: Yeah, for sure. Me too. 

[00:24:22] Keshaun Pearson: It’s only intelligence as we know it. So as a technologist, that bugs me a bit.

[00:24:26] But the propaganda that AI is so innovative, really ignores so many different things, right? Because the only thing that they truly are cementing is our reliance on fossil fuels. 

[00:24:39] Sound on Tape: That’s right. It’s 

[00:24:39] Keshaun Pearson: our reliance on fuel that are detrimental to our environment. And so they, they aren’t cementing our place in history as, some innovative cohort, like we are being really shackled to the poisons of the past.

[00:24:55] And what I often reference is the fact that we are not learning from the industrial era. 

[00:25:01] Sound on Tape: We’ve all 

[00:25:02] Keshaun Pearson: lived through an era where very powerful oligarchs. And who are still in power, right? ExxonMobil, bp, like who are still orchestrating so much of what we even experienced today because the reliance is still there.

[00:25:16] And and even on top of that, when we look at economics and this idea that, oh, we bring a data center. The data center’s gonna bring jobs. They continue to say that everywhere, whether it’s in Arizona and Alabama and Georgia and Maryland and Memphis, they have this thing where they’re talking about the digital Delta data centers don’t create significant amount of jobs that’s just.

[00:25:39] Reality. And so again, it is, but it’s propaganda that speaks to a bias that people are looking for, right? People are looking for comfort in, economics around data centers. And so that’s what they give them. But the truth is they, AI data centers don’t provide jobs, and the AI technology that they develop are taken away jobs.

[00:25:59] Sound on Tape: So 

[00:26:00] Keshaun Pearson: As a complete wraparound. Data centers don’t create jobs. It, they just don’t. And the propaganda machine that we are up against is extremely thorough because we see folks like the Memphis Mayor Paul Young who talks about, and endlessly about the benefits of the Xai facility being here.

[00:26:23] We have the greater Memphis Chamber who are the most wealthy. Folks in our area who are constantly touting how great XAI and Brent Mayo and Elon Musk is and how brilliant they are, but it, we are continuing to leave out the people who are suffering because of these decisions. 

[00:26:43] Sound on Tape: The people 

[00:26:43] Keshaun Pearson: who are suffering live in Westwood, live in box town.

[00:26:47] The people who are suffering, who have to live with. Elevated peak nitrogen oxide levels that have risen 79%. At this point we have a pre XAI pollution period, and a post XAI pollution period. That’s how significant the pollution that they brought was. And they did all of this illegally and unlawfully without a single permit.

[00:27:10] And so the propaganda is simply that, right? It is in an attempt to. Tech wash, greenwash even the detriment of this technology and the data centers being used to support the technology 

[00:27:26] Cayden Mak: For sure. Yeah. I think there’s a reason that we call this class War, tech here, let’s talk a little bit about I guess get into some of the sort of like tactical stuff that you’ve, you have been able to deploy. Vik, you got into this a little bit, talking about being able to identify the city council as like the place where you could make an intervention. Kishan, I’m curious if there have been similar things that you’ve discovered in your organizing that are like.

[00:27:52] How do you find the levers of power to pull in these kinds of fights because so much does feel stacked against us. 

[00:27:58] Keshaun Pearson: Yeah. And one thing that I want to be transparent about is the fact that it is a arduous experience. It is extremely difficult to learn and find. Actual people who have power, who will support the community, who will stand the community, who will fight for the community, it is so extremely difficult.

[00:28:21] Whether it is, and where we first look to is our city government who we have the closest relationships with or have been, more closely involved with, because they are involved in the trash pickup. They are, the city government is involved in so much of what folks experience on a day-to-day basis.

[00:28:38] So you think immediately my city mayor, my city council persons. And so reaching out to those folks and then realizing they are turning around and telling you XAI is a great deal for our community. We should be, welcome, welcoming these folks that the pollution isn’t that bad. We, mayor Paul Young, actually backed a study that says, it was of no consequence the amount of pollution that X AI was pushing out.

[00:29:03] Cayden Mak: Yikes. 

[00:29:04] Keshaun Pearson: And we have literal footage that shows 33 33 methane gas turbines operating at once would, which would put them above the Memphis International Airport in pollution. 

[00:29:19] Cayden Mak: Wow. 

[00:29:19] Keshaun Pearson: We’re talking about, at least 17.2. Tons of formaldehyde, a known carcinogen, right? We know it causes cancer in the air per year, right?

[00:29:31] It’s just this acceptance. And in the Alia pipeline fight one of the folks called us the path of least resistance.

[00:29:39] Sound on Tape: And 

[00:29:40] Keshaun Pearson: it is this idea that we are a sacrifice zone, right? We can, yeah, we can suffer with the pollution. We can die because of the pollution. We can have the 4.1 times the national rate of cancer.

[00:29:53] We can have the highest rate of children with asthma who experience asthma emergencies in Shelby County. We can’t. That’s okay. We can’t have that here. Because these folks don’t deserve clean air, clean water, or healthy environment. And so it is finding those few. That who will stand with you?

[00:30:14] For us it is Councilwoman Yolanda Cooper. Sutton is a Titan. Okay. She is four foot something, but is a giant as it pertains to protecting our community and fighting for right for us. On our county commission side, we have Commissioner Thornton and Commissioner Sugarman. Who work tirelessly to help build out infrastructure and legislation that will protect us, not just now, but going forward into the future as things continue to develop.

[00:30:43] And so it is finding those few working closely with them. But it’s also before you get there focusing on your phone. Who are the three closest people, the five closest people to you? That you can bring into this. And I’m sure as Myaisha and Vivek have organizing backgrounds.

[00:31:04] It starts at home. 

[00:31:05] My brother, representative Justin J. Pearson. My, my mother, my father Dr. Kimberly Owen Pearson, Reverend Jason C. Pearson, first it was at home, right? And then you branch out into your deeper community in getting those folks on board. And from there you leverage the folks who have a different set of power.

[00:31:25] But you start with, and you continue with people power, and that’s the biggest lever you could ever have. 

[00:31:34] Cayden Mak: Hell yeah. Vic, do you wanna talk a little bit, I know you mentioned that the company that’s building this data center is now like changing its orientation towards the county. If you wanna talk a little bit about what that is looking and how you are mapping the terrain now, post the city council wins.

[00:31:52] Vivek Bharathan: Yeah. And just to name, Kishan said this a little earlier, but this wasn’t, this couldn’t have happened. If it wasn’t for the work that others had put in before us, right? Like for decades Tucson has been the site of really strong, pro-immigrant organizing. Like against SB 10 70, if anybody remembers that, the Show me Your papers Act in 2010 of doing rapid response work during the first Trump administration really strong environmental justice work.

[00:32:19] And and since inauguration, Tucson has really blown up. There’s been a, there was like, before it got hot. There was like a protest once or twice a week reliably. We always had somewhere to go. Yeah. And so that’s a reason some many of those conversations were easy and it’s the reason why we had a place to go to have those conversations.

[00:32:37] So I just wanna name that and I misspoke earlier. The county supervisor who’s really been doing great work is Jennifer Allen. And, one of the things that she’s been doing, after, like we all got organized and showed up in such big numbers is really the Board of Supervisors has done a good job of guarding against what’s happening against this happening again by implementing some changes to their processes regarding NDAs and environmental assessment.

[00:33:04] So that’s really good. The bad part is. It’s fool me once, shame on me, fooled me twice. Shame on. No, it was it. Fool. That’s 

[00:33:12] Cayden Mak: the other way around. Yeah. 

[00:33:13] Vivek Bharathan: Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. They got fooled once by the company and so shame on them. The company told them during that meeting where they voted that they would not be pursuing this if the city council didn’t annex.

[00:33:26] So we got city council not to annex. 

[00:33:28] Sound on Tape: And 

[00:33:28] Vivek Bharathan: it turns out they’re lying because they’re still going to hold onto that land. And what we need county to do is say no. This was not the deal. And there, I don’t know if that’s what we showed up in numbers to do on Tuesday. I don’t know where that’s going to go.

[00:33:43] But if they don’t, then they better worry about their jobs because it’s clear that the community doesn’t support this. It was so clear to city council that they voted unanimously against it, right? Now, what I said earlier is this is the deal between the electric company, the private electric company, and the development company.

[00:34:01] So that goes now to the State Corporation Commission. They don’t have a great record of supporting people, but we’re gonna do our best to build a statewide coalition now. So that’s where the game is. Get in winners. We’re going Allstate. So and we also have an excellent. Effort from Tucson DSA that’s been going on for years to make the private electric company a public utility.

[00:34:22] Oh, cool. Yeah. Wow. So that campaign is called Public Power. That’s getting a lot of legs and so we’re geared up and ready to support them in that we already have a city council member. Two city council members and Paul Cunningham and our Vice Mayor Lane Santa Cruz have come out and support.

[00:34:37] It’s possible others have as well. I’m not sure. But that’s another area for intervention to just make sure that like the we are guarded by a public process. Because it is beyond. Messed up. I didn’t drop enough. I didn’t drop F bunk. Hayden, it’s beyond but messed up that, that a private company can just get with this development company and completely circumvent our local authorities and go directly to the state.

[00:35:04] And that’s what’s happening with this return of Project Blue. 

[00:35:07] Myaisha Hayes: Yeah, and I’ll just hop in really quick and say that I think this is why it’s so important to really be following the local fights and resistance that folks are leading against data centers because I think these fights are really illuminating the sort of playbook that these tech companies are using to push forth with these data centers, right?

[00:35:29] Like they’re using. LLCs and NDAs to negotiate these deals in private to prevent people from having any kind of public prevent people from having any kind of say. And I also think that the secrecy and the lack of transparency also means that these companies don’t have to be forthright. About their energy uses, their water usage the impact that it’s gonna have to local communities.

[00:35:55] And I think these local fights are reminding us that when it comes to, air, our water, affordable energy, like these are not luxuries, these are basic necessities for our survival and. Increasingly, these tech billionaires are becoming, frankly, the decision makers and gatekeepers o over how these resources are being used.

[00:36:18] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. It’s it really feels like this is like the end game of neoliberalism in a lot of ways, right? It’s let’s get. These tech oligarchs who are accountable to no one to determine who lives and who dies. It’s crazy, right? It’s wild. 

[00:36:32] Myaisha Hayes: And the other thing that Vivek and Keyshawn are point pointing out too is how important it is to build really broad base 

[00:36:40] Coalitions of people, right? As we said over and over again, these are our basic resources that we need to survive. Everybody has. A stake in data center projects. And so there’s a really, an incredible opportunity that I don’t know if we always see that often in organizing to pull and unite climate justice organizers.

[00:37:00] Racial justice organizers, tech accountability organizers to really challenge the power of these tech corporations. Just wanted to, 

[00:37:08] Cayden Mak: yeah. 

[00:37:09] Myaisha Hayes: How that connection 

[00:37:10] Cayden Mak: feel. It does feel like this is an opportunity to do some sort of 2 0 1 level, let’s do some real political education with people.

[00:37:17] Let’s really figure out what it’s like to move in coalition, which is really. That’s the stuff that I find to also be really heartening in these times where it feels like the political landscape is treacherous and really hard to get some traction on that. Like finding fights like these where you can bring a broad coalition together and see each other as real co-conspirators in a fight is a big there, there’s a win beyond just the sort of like concrete win of stopping something or shutting something down. That the, there’s a power building win that’s part of this. 

[00:37:50] Keshaun Pearson: Thank you for illuminating that Caydence. I think that’s something that hasn’t been talked, isn’t really.

[00:37:58] Talked about as much because the, so much of the focus is on the direct fight against these oligarchs, but we are working together in coalition. We have Black Voters Matter, is is focused on voting, but they are a central part in letting folks know what is happening in their district as it pertains to x ai. We also have the Southern Environmental Law Center. The national naacp right in our local chapter, in our state chapter is involved Here we have, we and we are working with the Sierra Club, young, gifted and Green is another environmental justice organization. You have the box town, community, Westwood, neighborhood Associations.

[00:38:40] So from the, our community organizations to very large organizations who cover a breadth of different issues are all invested in this because we all are affected in so many different ways. And I think that is the real view of data centers that has to be. Promoted that has to be seen is that data centers are not just an ice cream shop being set up.

[00:39:08] Yeah. Data centers are gonna affect your everyday life in so many different ways, and they already are. And so seeing it as a coalition issue is something that we can continue to do better of, but continue to put that light and highlight that part. 

[00:39:27] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Vive, could you, do you have something to add about your experience of building coalitions in Tucson?

[00:39:33] Vivek Bharathan: Yeah. If I can get through this part without tearing up a little bit. The. It’s like the experience of like meeting folks who are committed to this and just how wonderful and caring they are. Like we, we are for each other and for where we live, right? There’s a lot of currency about like your hometown and having lived here for a while.

[00:39:54] And there’s also the reality of this is a place where we all want to continue living, right? Yeah. So even if we haven’t been here for that long we are very invested in staying here. And like folks have opened up their homes for meetings. What has become clear is that the relationship we’ve built together as individuals will carry past this campaign.

[00:40:13] We are thinking about, how like we’re sick of being reactive to everything. 

[00:40:18] Sound on Tape: And we 

[00:40:19] Vivek Bharathan: want to build something proactive, and we really are interested in engaging with this conversation about economic development and like what sustainable economic development can look like for our communities, right?

[00:40:30] It’s, there are all of these like big projects that our administration seek to bring, but big projects can bring in big money and also a lot of blood, right? Yeah. What are some smaller projects that like smaller investors who are actually have a stake in our community can participate in?

[00:40:46] What are the kinds of projects like that the county and city can facilitate to really bring folks in that way? And that’s like what we wanna think about. And also there are other fights we’re gonna get involved in with too. There’s this enormous 3,300 acre, like ours was 290 acres. We went to the land just to com comprehend the enormity of it.

[00:41:06] Now they wanna build a 3,300 acre data center just north of us. In, in Eloy and Pinal County. There’s a group in a neighboring city, Benson, that’s. Reached out to us about what’s essentially an aluminum smelting factory they wanna build out there. So we’re building these relationships now with other communities and organ in, in Arizona, and we are going to sup, they’re there to support each other.

[00:41:28] And that is truly something beautiful that’s come out of this disaster. That’s, 

[00:41:32] Cayden Mak: yeah. That’s amazing. 

[00:41:34] Myaisha Hayes: That is amazing. And I just wanted to maybe build off of the vex point in terms of strategies. I think another thing that folks should think about or my recommendation is, start as early as you can.

[00:41:48] I, we know it’s really hard to find information about these projects, but the chances are you’re living in a state that already has a data centers, which means that, as Kean was saying, there are plans to expand in other regions of your state. So do everything that you can to find as much information about these projects because, in, in the development stages or in other.

[00:42:10] Places we’ve seen there might be delays. Those are the moments where you can really galvanize all of the people power that you’ve built, been building to show up and ask the hard questions that 

[00:42:21] Your representative should be able to answer. But it also gives you the opportunity to shift the terrain, and do what Vek is saying, which is be proactive and think about could there be ordinances in place that force public transparent processes around data centers other ordinances that could prevent all of the pollution and the water usage, whatever the demands are that people want to see.

[00:42:48] Starting early is the opportunity to get those wheels turning. 

[00:42:52] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Speaking of starting early, I’m wondering if there are patterns Myaisha that you all have seen in terms of what are some, like warning signs that something is rumbling? Because I imagine that especially with these growing campaigns to fight against data center expansion and new building that like, probably these companies are like, oh shit, we gotta do this kind of secret.

[00:43:14] We gotta keep it under wraps for as long as we can. 

[00:43:17] Myaisha Hayes: Keshaun, do you wanna. 

[00:43:20] Keshaun Pearson: No, you can go first. I’ll go ahead. 

[00:43:22] Myaisha Hayes: Okay. The warning signs for one, I think there’s, if there’s already a data center in your state, there are probably plans to build more. 

[00:43:29] I think we’re engaging with a lot of groups that are facing similar pollution issues that Keshaun has spoken about.

[00:43:36] Meta is building out, an enormous data center in Louisiana and in order to meet the energy demands, they’re building out three additional gas power. And cancer alley. 

[00:43:50] So there’s the pollution side that are the red flags, but honestly it’s also the utilities, right?

[00:43:57] People are waking up seeing the utility bills hiked by eight, 20, 50% overnight and. Don’t really know why. Nothing about their energy has changed. Nothing has changed about their uses of energy. And they’re seeing, the cost literally on their bills to subsidize these projects. So between the pollution and the utilities, I think those are some of the warning signs.

[00:44:25] Keshaun Pearson: I think that’s perfect. Honestly, for me, it’s a little bit broader. If you live in the United States of America, you’re gonna get a data center that, that is how pervasive this is. And if at all possible, I, the. The thing that I would pay attention to as much as possible is planning and zoning.

[00:44:44] They, there is a document documented process where these corporations, these developers, and you wanna have to do a little bit of leg work to figure out that CTC Corp is actually, XAI subsidy. But. Connecting those dots with the planning and the zoning for your area and being able to track what the, what these look like.

[00:45:06] And it is again, complicated. It’s time consuming. But if you wanna get ahead of it is paying attention to that ’cause that is where they’re gonna show up first in tho those planning and zoning documents. 

[00:45:20] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I always get so excited when I hear about basically like organizing campaigns becoming like masterclasses and like how does power work at the local level?

[00:45:29] It like reminds me of some of my own experiences working on like housing organizing here in Oakland where like we had to become experts in California state surplus land law. What is that? I don’t know, but it’s wild what you have to teach yourself if you wanna win some of these fights, but yeah, and I think I, to me, a lot of that, let’s learn together is like some of the most unifying stuff with other people in a bigger coalition that like, none of us are experts, but what we can do is. Look up things, ask neighbors who might have different expertises and there’s something really cool about that that I find personally, like really galvanizing.

[00:46:07] So 

[00:46:08] Vivek Bharathan: we have two urban planning students in our coalition. Amazing. And they’ve been. Just one of them is messaging me right now, telling me everything to include about planning and zoning. 

[00:46:20] Sound on Tape: Dope. 

[00:46:20] Cayden Mak: I love it. 

[00:46:21] Vivek Bharathan: See if there’s an electric connection in a large area, that’s for sale,

[00:46:24] Cayden Mak: okay. That’s great. Yeah, so 

[00:46:27] Vivek Bharathan: find you one of those. 

[00:46:29] Cayden Mak: Find a for sale, large electric connection. Yeah, it’s stuff that’s it feels wonky, but like when you can connect it to these like really material impacts, I think it’s, this stuff shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t be rocket science.

[00:46:42] It’s like we need to pull back the curtain a little bit on a lot of these bureaucratic processes. As we round out here I’m curious how folks can keep up with your work. Plug where people can, one, get involved in campaigns, especially if they’re local to Memphis. If they’re local to Tucson.

[00:46:59] And also pay attention to what’s going on and share some of these stories more broadly. Let’s start with Myaisha, and then we’ll go Vivek and Khaw. 

[00:47:08] Myaisha Hayes: Yeah, I’m just. So many more things I wanna rant about, but plus please follow our work at Media Justice. You can follow me or reach out to me personally.

[00:47:22] We do a lot of political education on everything related to the tech oligarchs. We had a whole series tracing the sort of plans and collusion that was happening within Trump’s first 100 days. We’re continuing to do political education. In fact, we have a report coming out on data centers in the South coming out this month.

[00:47:44] Amazing. With the webinar on September 17th. That’s actually gonna do some of what Keshaun and Vivek pointed out, which is trying to trace exactly the expansions that are happening in certain states, but also the LLCs, the other investments. The other entanglements that are involved in helping these projects move forward.

[00:48:03] And yeah, so just follow our work, follow the report, and from there you’ll fi find out more information about how to get involved with us. 

[00:48:10] Cayden Mak: Fantastic, 

[00:48:11] Vivek Bharathan: Vivic. We are at no desert data center.com and on Instagram at no Desert data Center with underscores between the words. So please do follow us there.

[00:48:21] If you’re in Tucson or in Southern Arizona or in Arizona message us. We can connect with you and, fight these huge hyperscale data centers together. We’re not trying to get in front of anybody’s Netflix. We all want that too. Those, that’s not what we’re fighting here. We’re not fighting those smaller ones.

[00:48:37] It’s these ginormous ones that suck up all our water. And also, please fund us like fun. Like we, we don’t have time. To track you down if you have money. All right? Please, if you’re a funder, build up the capacity to find us yourselves and just throw money at us because we’re out here doing unpaid work.

[00:48:56] It’s taxing, it’s exhausting, and it’s heartbreaking. And we need help. We need compensation for all this unpaid labor. So take on that work. 

[00:49:06] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Resource. Make a differe.

[00:49:08] Keshaun Pearson: Yeah, just affirming with Vivic said, justice Works needs just as much funding as the oppressive regime is funded, right? We have to be an equal opposite force and Memphis Community Against Pollution, we can be found at www dot Memphis.

[00:49:26] C aap.org. You can follow us on Instagram memphis c aap org. And you can, and my name is gonna be my social media handles. So it’s at Keshaun, K-E-S-H-A-U-N-P-E-A-R-S-O-N, Keshaun Pearson. And you can find me and I’m. All of my chats and stuff are open. Feel free to reach out. Email. We need to continue to build coalition.

[00:49:54] We need to continue to build the power that we will need to fight the most powerful people on the planet. 

[00:50:01] Cayden Mak: Amazing. Thank all three of you so much for this rich conversation. I also wish we had another three hours to like really dig deep on this. But yeah, thank you so much for your time, for all of your amazing work.

[00:50:12] It is has been a real pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:50:15] Vivek Bharathan: Thank you. 

[00:50:16] Cayden Mak: Thank 

[00:50:16] Myaisha Hayes: you so 

[00:50:17] Cayden Mak: much for having 

[00:50:17] Myaisha Hayes: us. 

[00:50:18] Vivek Bharathan: Thanks so much. Take care everybody. 

[00:50:20] Cayden Mak: Amazing. My thanks again to Myaisha, Vivek, and Khaw for joining me today. And all of the links that our guests mentioned to connect with their work will of course be in the show notes.

[00:50:30] This show is published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. I’m Kaden Mak, and our producer is Josh Stro. Kim David designed our cover art, and if you have something to say, please drop me a line. You can send me an email that will consider running on an upcoming mailbag episode at [email protected].

[00:50:47] And finally, if you would like to support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment, you can become a [email protected] slash donate. Even a few bucks a month goes a long way to making sure that our independent small team.

[00:51:03] Can continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this helps.