Narrative Power Summit 2025 w/ Shaira Chair & Ivie Osaghae

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build a podcast from Convergence Magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence Cayden Mak. On this show, we’re building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front.

[00:00:22] We need to win. If you’re watching the show on YouTube today, you may notice there’s something a little bit different. I am not in my living room. This show is coming to you today live from the Narrative Power Summit in New Orleans, Louisiana. I’m joined by some of the brilliant narrative leaders here at the summit, and I hope that we can capture a little of the energy of this gathering for all of our listeners today on the program.

[00:00:41] It may not surprise you that we are going to talk about narrative power. It’s a crucial piece of the puzzle when it comes to the full picture of governing power and because. Governing power is more than just the task of winning elections. It’s about wielding that power to create structural change and building robust infrastructure to defend those changes until they can defend themselves.

[00:00:59] Let’s dive right into understanding what we mean when we talk about narrative power by bringing in my first guest. Both these guests are team members at Reframe, which for listeners not already familiar, is an organization that uses technology to understand narratives across our society in real time, gainer, strategic insight and forecast arising opportunities to advance just narratives.

[00:01:18] They are also a co-hosting organization of the Narrative Power Summit, so I am very grateful to them for taking the time outta their busy week this week to chat today. I’m joined now by the program specialist for Reframe, Shira Chi Shira, thank you so much and welcome to Block and Build. 

[00:01:32] Shaira Chaer: Thank you. So happy to be here.

[00:01:34] Cayden Mak: Um, and also joining me is the creative and brand specialist for Reframe, Evie Oge. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks Caden, for having 

[00:01:42] Ivie Osaghae: me. 

[00:01:42] Cayden Mak: Well, to start us off, I do wanna dig a little bit deeper into what we’re talking about when we talk about narrative. Um, there are a lot of definitions that are floating around out there, but could you tell me a little bit about the framework that Reframe uses to talk about and understand narrative and what the sort of origins of that framework are?

[00:01:59] Shaira Chaer: Yeah, I mean, we are one of many narrative, uh, oriented organizations, but the way that we think about narrative is it’s a co, it’s the meaning that people are making. So based on a collection of stories, repeat the same kind of thematic themes. So in a lot of our trainings, we use, um, the analogy of fairytales and if people think about a fairytale as a story, so like.

[00:02:21] Snow White. Think about the lesson or the theme that is actually the narrative. And sometimes that’s the thing that like really turns it on for people that we actually know what a story is and what a narrative is. Um, and so we try to like demystify kind of like the jargony academic definitions for narrative.

[00:02:36] But 

[00:02:37] Cayden Mak: the thing that I really wanted to talk to you both about today was, is specifically the forecasting work that you’ve been doing. Throughout the narrative Power Summit, like you’ve been showing a lot of the, like Zina Labs, like graphs on the screen, but could you do, tell me a little bit about like what it means to be doing narrative forecasting, um, and what are the things that you’re learning through this process?

[00:02:58] Shaira Chaer: Oh yeah. I can start and then kick it back to you. Um, so coming from the perspective of the person who’s in, uh, Z most of the time, um, what we mean is signal. Yes. So what we mean when we say signal, signal is a data scraping tool that uses a big language learning model, um, that we also tinker with. We are building out these sets of profiles, attract particular issues, particular conversations, people, brands, all kinds of things, um, bot networks, uh, that really, um, help us.

[00:03:32] Carve into the types of stories, messages, content that are, you know, contending for people’s attention. 

[00:03:39] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:39] Shaira Chaer: Um, contending for people’s worldview, their ideology, their beliefs. And so Zal is one of the tools that we use to, um. Help other organizations doing narrative and doing organizing and and communicating, right?

[00:03:52] ’cause that looks so many different ways to be able to figure out what actually is the way that we can harness some of the key pivotal moments, probably before they happen sometimes. Anticipating those key pivotal moments. Before they happen, um, or Melinda shared in our sandbox earlier that oftentimes because the Rite is very well networked, very well funded mm-hmm.

[00:04:14] Has all of the, really has like a good, um, control of the media infrastructure. We all know that. Right. Uh, they are able to hop on a key story or. Advance key messages and narratives within two hours that the story breaks and trends. Wow. While folks on the left, progressives take about two to three days when already the breaking point has kind of started to subside.

[00:04:37] Yeah. And people are 

[00:04:37] Cayden Mak: like not chit chatting about those things on social media in the same way. No, exactly. Yeah. So 

[00:04:42] Shaira Chaer: they take advantage of the viral moment to just pump. Into the narrative ecosystem, their worldviews, their narrative frames. And so what we are trying to say, um, as a narrative, uh, power building organization that is trying to do long haul hardcore narrative strategy, organizing work, that actually we need to be leveraging, um, these types of tools that give us like millions of pieces of content in real time to be able to identify some of those opportunities.

[00:05:10] Just the same way, maybe even better than the right does. But I’ll pitch it to ev a to talk a little bit about like the forecasting, the predictions of it all. ’cause we do do narrative predictions. Yeah, 

[00:05:20] Ivie Osaghae: right on. So, like Shira said, narrative research is one of our breads and butter. Um, and this year we actually put out our fourth predictions report.

[00:05:30] So every year we put out narrative predictions for the last four years, and it really was birthed out of what Shira just said. And on the ethos of our narrative research, it’s. Trying to build and fortify the narrative infrastructure. 

[00:05:43] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:43] Ivie Osaghae: Right. And so for us, if we know like what Shira was saying around the right, being able to be able to jump on these things within hours of things coming into the mainstream consciousness, what does that look like for us to be able to build narrative infrastructure that supports movement organizations’, power building organizations, and folks who are moving narrative strategy that contends for a future that is.

[00:06:05] Liberated for all of us, right? And so the narrative predictions every year are a way of like helping people support in them building their narrative strategy. And so for the last four years, we’ve put about six buckets of predictions out each year. Um, and each one really takes what we find in our big listening.

[00:06:26] Um, what we find in one-to-one conversations, um, what we find at like places like this and conferences and conversations, and really trying to see what are the threads that we see, what are the things that are gaining velocity, what are a little bit quieter, but have the potential to pop. And so by being able to see those things, six.

[00:06:44] 12, 18 months in advance, we see the fruits of those labor. And I think one of the things that has been really wonderful about doing this work over the last five years really is being able to see from that first predictions report in 2021 all the way to now. How Right. We were about a lot of these things.

[00:07:03] Yeah. Like truly point for point. And it’s like, it, it sucks to be right about it, but it also is like the power of the methodology that we’ve been able to own. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, like I said, we’ve been doing this for five years, but Reframe has been around for 10 years this year. And this is not just like a new thing that we’ve been doing.

[00:07:20] Yeah. We’re taking all the pieces of the things that we know have worked and also innovating and trying to create something lasting. For the narrative ecosystem. 

[00:07:27] Cayden Mak: Cool. Could you tell our our audience a little bit about maybe one example of a forecasting thing that came true and that like the forecasting also maybe being like a useful intervention for movement organizations?

[00:07:38] Ivie Osaghae: That’s a really good question. I think one of my favorite ones. Was actually around, I don’t know if this made the official report, but it was tied to one that we called escapism or the future. Mm. And this one was back in 2022, I believe. It was our 2022 report. And at the time we had just done our second RONA report, um, in the one year anniversary of the COVID Lockdowns.

[00:08:00] Mm-hmm. And what we had put. Fourth was this grab back almost of like lifestyle content that we were gonna start seeing where people were gonna start putting more apolitical content out. People were gonna start using shrooms and like also just being like sober curious. Yeah. In a different way. Yeah. But also we were predicting this piece around like expatriation and leaving the US preemptively.

[00:08:21] Mm-hmm. And so now, you know. Two, three years in the future, we see those threads coming to the front. How many influencers around, you know, like everything that’s been happening over the last two years who have been solely depoliticizing their content while also being very loud in that choice. That is a political act.

[00:08:38] Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I think that’s one that really stands out to me. But there’s so many around, like we predicted like union organizing coming to a pop, like labor summer stuff. We were like, oh yeah, this pop for sure. 

[00:08:51] Shaira Chaer: Um, yeah, it came up I think during the, um, sag after Strikes Uhhuh, and we were like, well, this is gonna blow up across sectors, across different, um, arts and creative industries, especially.

[00:09:05] Workplaces that have not formally been part of a union. Mm. And then the U AAW was like, yeah, we’re gonna try to do some stuff in the south. Yeah. Yeah. And we saw what they did, you know, in the Midwest, but then in Tennessee, um, and in Alabama too. And you know, they won one. After three times. Mm-hmm. Because that was a long arc of organizing, right around narrative, around solidarity, right?

[00:09:28] Around pro worker narratives. Okay. And then they lost the first one in advance, but it was just their first election. And most people were like, it’s not gonna work. It’s not gonna happen. The workers are not gonna wanna unionize. And actually most of the workers did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it’s not, not nothing, but I think on, on the point of the, like what’s the favorite prediction?

[00:09:49] It might’ve been that same report, um, around authenticity. Hmm. People love this word. Yeah. Right. What is it like to be authentic? Um, but I think that was during Bad Bunny’s first, like global tour. Uh huh. It was, it was popping. He was selling out stadiums. People were like enamored by him, whether you spoke Spanish, whether you were Bo Rico or not.

[00:10:13] Like people were very much into the authenticity that he expressed in his work and the way that he tied it back into, um, pro. Puerto Rican liberation. Mm-hmm. Narratives through his music, through his art, through the way that he was unapologetically himself. And we saw that again with the latest album release where again, he like, he tried to do like a little, you know, Latin trap or whatever a couple years ago, and people didn’t really like it, but then he went right back into his roots.

[00:10:40] Combined, like, and ssa and of course this is very, very Latina specific, but the, the, the point still stands. And so people are looking for those kinds of authentic experiences to validate some of their beliefs and their worldviews, right, but also give them the ability to be able to connect to some of those.

[00:10:59] Really key liberatory narratives around what it looks like to express solidarity with folks, what it looks like to, um, you know, fly kafi in your music videos. Mm-hmm. What it looks like to be able to say like, Gring, go, go home in your songs and like, have all of the folks across the diaspora be like Absolutely.

[00:11:19] Yeah. And then have that album be the way that youth organizations are using to build their base. Hmm. And I’m just like, I want. For us in, for us in the left, for progressive social movement folks to be able to use some of the pop culture moments and like really listen to the conversations that people are having with each other.

[00:11:38] Yeah. So that we can make some interventions in places where we’re actually not really present. But where there’s a lot of attention and, and conversations happening organically. 

[00:11:46] Ivie Osaghae: One thing I do wanna say on that point is like, I think Bat Bunny’s work is a very great example of this, of how narrative takes a very long time to disseminate.

[00:11:56] And it doesn’t change, but stories around it does. 

[00:11:59] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:11:59] Ivie Osaghae: Right. So if we look at his work from like five, six years ago, right? It was very underground. Only people who like were paying attention to that genre of music. Were aware of who he was, and then it popped forth because you know you have that one crossover song every time.

[00:12:13] Yep. And then now everybody’s like, who is this person? I see him everywhere. And everybody’s on board with this. And people who don’t even speak Spanish are like, I feel something in my body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don’t know what it is, but I feel aligned with this. Right. And that’s really, that’s what a good narrative does.

[00:12:28] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it also just highlights how a lot of the narrative change work that. Our movements are perhaps currently engaged in, may not be super visible. Yeah, absolutely. To people who are outside of them, but like a lot of the work that we’re doing is like preparing the ground for a slingshot moment.

[00:12:45] Mm-hmm. Like that where we can slingshot, uh, our stories, our perspectives, our analysis outside of. Uh, the folks who already know and understand like what we’re about. Yes. Outta the echo chamber and into the streets. Exactly. Yes. 

[00:13:00] Shaira Chaer: I love that. Oh my God. Wow. 

[00:13:03] Cayden Mak: I think that sounds like new convergence merch, maybe.

[00:13:06] Oh, shit. Maybe. Well, you know, speaking of the Echo Chamber, I’ve been thinking a lot, and Shira, I know that you and I have talked quite a bit about my thoughts about the need for. Progressives for the left to be developing a real political line in these times. Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about how you think about the relationship between these feedback loops that you’re describing and the sort of like velocity building echo chamber that is necessary and the sort of need to create a political line in these times that is, are like responsive to the conditions that we’re seeing.

[00:13:38] Especially like acknowledging that we are living under like active authoritarianism. Yeah. 

[00:13:45] Shaira Chaer: We should. Yeah. That’s amazing. So the, the common like theme in conversations at at NPS is like, the left is not cool, which, you know, it is what it is, but I think like, to, to go back to your point about. Um, political line development.

[00:14:00] We see narrative, uh, work, narrative, power building as a key part of that. And it may be controversial to say, but some of the folks that we are trying to organize towards a political line, um, towards building that big tent may actually not wanna go all the way there with us. Mm. And that’s okay. There are roles for everyone.

[00:14:23] We just need to get a critical mass enough of people to be able to agree on like one particular narrative, north Star or a set of narrative North Stars narrative really creates. The, the opening for some of that, for some of that organizing. Um, I’m thinking about, uh, we talk a lot about values and beliefs in narrative change and, and narrative theory.

[00:14:46] And oftentimes the way that you are able to recruit, you know, your persuadables beyond your base or pull back, um, some of the oppositional audiences that may be persuadable for certain issues is actually through that values and beliefs. Particular messaging to figure out what it is that they’re actually galvanized by.

[00:15:06] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:06] Shaira Chaer: So if they come along with you on like one or two issues, but don’t wanna go all the way towards that end, you know, on the political line development, like that’s okay. Yeah. There will be other people. Um, and then in terms of like reframe sort of. The way that we are thinking about this particular moment where we feel like we have maybe 12 to 18 months before fascism is just, it’s here to stay.

[00:15:29] Yeah. Um, and so we are running on borrowed time, and that is kind of a morbid thing to say out loud. Lots of people don’t wanna hear it, but it does need to be said. Um, we’re thinking about a set of strategic functions that does kind of like. Help develop a political line, right? Mm-hmm. And so some of that includes the mass political education that we actually need.

[00:15:51] Yep. We’re losing our recipes. People are not doing organizing school the same way that they were, you know, during the Occupy Wall Street days. Sure. That’s where I was radicalized. That’s where I went to organizing school. That’s where I was able to do like popular education with other students at, at, you know, city University in New York City.

[00:16:07] That was the line for me. We don’t have those same spaces in real life, like in person that youth organizers, for example, can like tap into really quickly or, you know, propaganda for the p the, the people we were talking about the sticker, the, the shirt. But it’s like actually yeah, we should be doing more of that.

[00:16:27] It doesn’t need to be a giant billboard that costs you five, $10,000. It can just be stickers. Yeah. Week pasting. You know, hitting up graffiti writers. Yeah. They’d be tagging all the time. Like, we should be using, using those, those pieces of like infrastructure that already exists. There’s also the idea of like futurity and protagonism and what is the story of the left?

[00:16:46] Mm. 

[00:16:46] Sound on Tape: What are 

[00:16:47] Shaira Chaer: we saying about ourselves? Yeah. What do we want people to embody if our comrades across the world are like, America doesn’t need, you know, uh, a certain, it just needs revolution. Like you actually need a a worker uprising. What are you going to do? Yeah. And that is the question that they’re posing back to us because they are also seeing the conditions that we’re under and they’re like, yeah, it’s coming here too.

[00:17:09] So like, as goes, you so goes the rest of us. So how can we actually, you know, build cross border relations, cross language relations, cross narrative, solidarity work, um, in a way that that, you know, puts the left as the main character, um. There’s cross sector movement, uh, narrative infrastructure development.

[00:17:30] There’s a lot of training. There’s. Development of people’s skills. There’s, um, bridging networks across narratives and across issues. And then there’s targeted campaigns across audiences. We talked about the predictions. Mm-hmm. We talked about Bad Bunny. We can talk about Beyonce, right? Yeah. She’s done two different albums.

[00:17:46] One that was very like queer joy oriented, and then the other one speaks to a completely different audience, but it still speaks to multiple audiences in different ways. So like what actually is the way that we are doing some of those? Targeted narrative campaigns, like some of the pop culture stuff, but to, you know, a set of different audiences that we may or may not be talking to already that kind of share some of our values and beliefs.

[00:18:12] But just need to be organized into a specific 

[00:18:13] Cayden Mak: vector. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s, that’s really interesting. I, I think the Beyonce thing is actually really interesting because of the way that, like, I feel like there’s a lot of like, think pieces out there about like her ability to shift between different genres, different formats, but like the insight that also she is also acknowledging these different parts of her core audience.

[00:18:33] Yeah. Through the shifting through genre is like actually a really interesting narrative lesson to take. 

[00:18:39] Ivie Osaghae: Yeah, I would say Beyonce is a master of persona mapping. Like, I think it’s been true, um, not to go on a whole bird walk about Beyonce, but it’s been true since she like released self-titled Yeah, like 12 years ago, right?

[00:18:53] Like her coming out of herself was doing music for herself and by extension. Being more authentic to people. Mm-hmm. And I think that the difference is Beyonce’s content is not relatable. It’s aspirational. 

[00:19:05] Sound on Tape: Mm. 

[00:19:07] Ivie Osaghae: And I think that oftentimes, I think folks on the left really lean into the aspiration. Yeah. And don’t know how to speak to the relate relatability.

[00:19:17] And it’s like, it’s like no shade to our people. Right. But it’s like we have to be able to talk to the person that sits next to us on a bench. Yeah. And not go to the, have you heard about communism today? Like, you know, like, not like, you know, like you have to be able to talk to people about their bread and butter issues.

[00:19:37] Sure. And like kitchen table things. Sure. And it’s like, it’s really like, it is no, no fault to our people, but it’s like, how do we talk to each other, like human beings? Mm-hmm. Because those are the places in which we are losing ground to the right, because they can talk to the, the average person as a person.

[00:19:54] Yeah. And not trying to like. You know, be this whatever to them. Yeah. Yeah. They’re just trying to be relational. 

[00:20:01] Cayden Mak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and I think that the one thing that I sort of wanna do to like loop back to our previous conver, the previous thread about the narrative predictions is like a lot of that sort of like big picture listening.

[00:20:14] I’m curious like what those sources are and like how you think they maybe reflect the sort of like. Uh, or can give us a good snapshot of the vibes beyond like, let’s look at headlines from publications. Let’s listen to what podcasters are talking about. ’cause I think that like all of those methods give us a limited view into what that conversation, that regular as people are having.

[00:20:37] Ivie Osaghae: Yeah, I think this is a really good point and that’s why. We do the type of research that we do. I think what is, what is oftentimes done in this kind of work is like, you know, you might take this, you might pull this audience, you might do this kind of thing. Because we are narrative researchers. We are looking at the data.

[00:20:56] Yes. Mm-hmm. But we’re also interpreting the data from. A strategist and an organizing perspective, right? Like we are all organizers, we’re all comms people. And so for us it’s like, okay, if I see this spike on April 15th about this thing, I’m investigating it and I’m not taking it at face value. Mm-hmm. Not just what is going on in the news cycle, but what’s happening within our ecosystems.

[00:21:16] Yeah. What’s happening within our audiences, and then how is that talking to something that’s pulling the collective imagination across the country? And so for us it’s about. Taking the data from our big listing tools. It’s also talking to each other, talking to other organizers, talking to other movement building organizations and power building organizations.

[00:21:36] And it’s also looking to see what is happening in the pockets that you named. Yeah, yeah. You know, to be able to see the velocity, to be able to guess whether or not, or not even guess, forecast whether or not this emerging narrative will become dominant, and where could that become dominant? How much time could that take to do that?

[00:21:52] And that’s. Not something that everyone does. Yeah. It makes us special. 

[00:21:57] Shaira Chaer: It makes us very special. You know, I know that, uh, Mac, I think yesterday brought in, um, Fanon, friended the pod. Yeah. We love Mac. Have a cereal. Mac, Mac. Mac is uh, on our reframe board. We’re very, very lucky to have them there. But they brought in Fanon and then I was like, oh my gosh.

[00:22:12] So much of our predictions work builds on. Decades and decades of like science fiction and like movement organization and, um, labor organizing. So we talk about Octavia Butler a lot. The predictions really are just a manifestation of some of the things that she was oriented towards. And then I think about Gracely Boggs a lot and her dialectics around time.

[00:22:36] Yep. And I’m like, the predictions is not this like. Crystal ball that we just make a guess. Yeah. It’s like, well, what? Look, what did this look like 60, 70 years ago? What were the conditions then that look very similar to the now? And based on those conditions and those narratives, which are similar because narratives can often be generational.

[00:22:56] Yep. Right? The things that our parents and our grandparents and our ancestors dealt with are absolutely still status quo narratives like that has not changed. And so if we know those things, how do we get. The past, the present, and the future to kind of intersect. And that is really an interesting way that narrative and big data, you know, do that work with us and for us.

[00:23:17] Cayden Mak: Yeah. This stuff is so interesting. ’cause I don’t know. Yeah. I could talk about it forever. I think all the time about Octavia Butler responding to people being like, how can you know the future? Yes. And her being like, I’m just an astute observer of my conditions. Yes. And that like, that’s such a like. Yeah.

[00:23:31] Like I, I think we need to build that muscle more and more. Yeah. 

[00:23:35] Ivie Osaghae: I had a professor once that said to me, if you know the hundred years of any one country’s history, you probably know the next hundred. And it’s, her work does that. Like, unless something, unless some catastrophic event or like some major intervention happens Yeah.

[00:23:50] Within the history of a nation, chances are it will repeat itself. Yeah. And I think we’re seeing that in the country. The country turns 250 years old next year and our bedrock. Fishers are coming to a head in a completely 

[00:24:03] Cayden Mak: different way. Totally. Well, uh, you know, on that cheerful note Yeah. Happy. I could believe you with that.

[00:24:09] Y you know, like this is why people call, this is why people listen to the show. We pull, we pull no punches. Right. Thank you. Absolutely. Like it is what it is. Um, thank you both so much for making time to chat today. Thank you for having us. Yeah, it was absolutely a pleasure. And thank you for putting on such a fantastic event.

[00:24:23] Oh. You. It’s been great to be here. Thank you. Yeah. That’s so nice. I’m gonna invite, uh, our b segment panel to the stage to put some of this into context. Um, and so I’m gonna welcome three of our colleagues, uh, from around the narrative power ecosystem to talk about their work, concretizing some of these ideas, and talking to what they’re doing is to put some of this into practice.

[00:24:45] Sound on Tape: Hello, I’m Marcy Ryan and I’m the print editor for Convergence. If you’re enjoying this show like I am, I hope you’ll consider subscribing to Convergence. We’re a small, independent operation and rely heavily on our readers and listeners like you to support our work. You can become a [email protected] slash donate.

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[00:25:44] Cayden Mak: To put some of what we’ve been discussing into some context. I’m excited to welcome a few more colleagues from around the narrative power ecosystem to talk about their work and concretize some of these ideas going, uh, from, uh, closest to me to furthest away. Uh, we first have, uh, digital strategist for Dream Defenders and the owner of the Fashion Brand Board by pressure, Jabari Nichols.

[00:26:03] Welcome Jabari. Thank you for joining me today. 

[00:26:05] Jabari Mickles: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

[00:26:07] Cayden Mak: And next is Kamal Walton, who’s the Associate Director for Communications at the Right to the City Alliance. Uh, Kamal, thanks for making the time. 

[00:26:15] Kamau Walton: Anytime. Anytime. 

[00:26:17] Cayden Mak: And finally, uh, my friend in chosen fam, uh, outta Greensboro, North Carolina, Jess St.

[00:26:22] Louis, who is also doing a bunch of organizing work with the Carolina Federation. Jess, thanks for being here. Hey, thank you. Glad to be here. Alright, well, to start us out, uh, I’m really curious to hear from each of you and you can decide in which order you, you go. But, uh, can you talk a little bit about the role of thinking about these big narrative questions in your work?

[00:26:43] And also I guess. Introduce our audience a little bit to the work of your organization. Talk like, talk a little bit about the context you’re operating in and tell us a little bit about why these, like big picture narrative questions are so important to the work that you’re doing. 

[00:26:57] Jabari Mickles: So again, Jabari Michels with Dream Defenders and doing fashion with Born by Pressure, and I think both of those things go really hand in hand.

[00:27:05] I, I see myself as like a cul cultural architect know, like, you know, just really looking at it like, how are we building our institutional influence over. What is normal for the next few generations. Right. And so to your point, I think the thing that I’m always contending with right now is like, what is the future that we’re actually offering people?

[00:27:27] Because it feels like we’re in a, a, a really stagnant framework of like empire versus like hippie or the rebel. Mm-hmm. But it’s like a really romanticized vision of like, we never really go back. We never go past day one. Like happily ever after. And I’m like really struggling as a business owner I think, and as a fashion and person who’s in fashion.

[00:27:48] And fashion is obviously one of those forms follows function. Like we’re seeing conservative dressing, conservative really culture coming in. We’re starting to see the, you know, our dressing also follow that trend. But I think it’s like, I think Dream Defenders is in our movement is really stuck with like, what are we offering for the entrepreneur in.

[00:28:12] Communist is a communist future, right? Like there will be businesses, there will be markets. Markets didn’t start with capitalism, right? It’s like human right? Like how, like as we talk about being more human in our approach, how do we talk about the economy in these, as they were saying in section A, these like kitchen and table ways.

[00:28:31] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:28:31] Jabari Mickles: Right? Like who is. Who, how do we get the, the, the shop owner to like buy into communism? Because Walmart is why his business is struggling. Sure. And Amazon, right? Like how do we get back to things that actually have value? Like we don’t have to commodify everything to the point where nothing has value.

[00:28:50] And I think we’re really at a moment where we’re seeing, like on TikTok, these young people. Are articulating things about like communism and things that, like, our organizations are afraid to say Sure. ’cause money is involved. Which I don’t think that’s anything that we have to like, act like isn’t real.

[00:29:07] Right, right, right, right. Like, you know, we dream defenders experience lots of loss with supporting Palestine so like, so forward. Mm-hmm. Right. But I, I just think that we’re really contending with like, I actually think we’re at a political moment where people are ripe for this new. Idea, like I think Trump and all them are really able to make them very clear that this future, whatever it is, even though we have no agenda to talk about how it works, it will be better than what is right now.

[00:29:37] And I think they demand a little bit more from us because they don’t trust us. Hmm. But I, and I think, but I think they support our ideas, right? Like that’s why the right’s spending so much money, so. That’s just what we’re contending with a little bit in Dream Defenders. Yeah, and I think in general, 

[00:29:50] Kamau Walton: um, yeah, so for Right to the City Alliance, just to name it, we’re a national alliance with over 70 organizations that do work from like, uh, tenant union organizing to building out community land trusts, to experimenting with alternative forms of housing, like social housing.

[00:30:09] Um, we also organize folks in mobile home parks. Um, and so. A, a big question for us on the narrative tip is, is something that’s been talked about here at the Narrative Power Summit of how do we go from like the individual to the collective, from individual responsibility to collective responsibility. Um, and when that comes to housing, it’s thinking about the fact that, you know, during COVID.

[00:30:36] In these times with the inflation, with the, the unknowns of the tariff, regardless of how the stock market is doing, we know people are struggling every single day. We know the first of the month is one of the most stressful days of the month because people are trying to make rent. Um, and. We know that there’s a lot of like, guilt, shame, embarrassment, and, and, um, just personal responsibility put onto individuals around whether or not they can secure, stable, affordable, permanent housing for themselves.

[00:31:07] And it’s actually not an individual responsibility. Yeah. Like our, our work is to show that actually this is a setup. Actually, like you can change this situation by coming together with other individuals and building some collective power. Um, and, and really shifting the logic around housing as a commodity.

[00:31:28] Hmm. Like housing is for living, not for profiting. Um, and it’s hard in, in the US right now because we have things like, you know, HGTV. Selling Sunset. All these different examples of how easy it is to like acquire housing and flip it and make tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in ways that aren’t really accessible to working people, to everyday people and make things harder for working people.

[00:31:55] And yes, and definitely makes it harder for working people. And so, um, for Right To the City, we’re really trying to think about how we can connect working class folks. Um. Whether they’re renters and also homeowners because we see homeowners as tenants of the banks until that mortgage is fully paid.

[00:32:17] Sound on Tape: Alright? 

[00:32:17] Kamau Walton: If you’re missing payments, you can be foreclosed one, much like a renter can be evicted. Granted, it’s going to be a longer process, but that home is not yours. In that time. And so how are we also bridging those gaps between homeowners and renters? Because oftentimes when it comes to the organizing work that folks are doing, there’s this divide of like, well, I’m a homeowner and I’m a permanent resident, and you just rent here, 

[00:32:40] Cayden Mak: right?

[00:32:41] Kamau Walton: Yeah. And so, um, we have. A lot of member organizations in places across the country that are doing that work to build those bridges because right to the city comes out of the foreclosure crisis, um, in the early two thousands. And we organized a lot and our members continue to organize people who are fighting foreclosures, who are challenging the banks, as well as getting at corporate landlords because we’re seeing that, especially in post COVID times, there are big land grabs.

[00:33:11] And, um, big efforts to go more into the rental market because it’s easier to evict people, it’s easier to hike rents and costs and, um, it’s easier to, to push for things on the lobbying front around preemption laws that, that keep tenants without rights to organize without, you know, the right to just cause eviction protections.

[00:33:32] And so we’re really trying to think about that individual. Too collective because we see that’s where the power is being built with our folks. Yeah. Um, on the local level and thinking about how we can scale that up on statewide levels to contest for governing power there. 

[00:33:48] Cayden Mak: That’s fantastic. 

[00:33:50] Jess St. Louis: Yeah. Ooh, both of y’all are so brilliant.

[00:33:54] So, yeah. I’m Jess St. Louis. Um, I am a member leader of Guilford for All, which is, uh, the Guilford County chapter of the Carolina Federation. Um, I’m part of, I was part of the founding steering committee, um, and the Carolina Federation, for those who don’t know, is, um, a statewide independent political organization that is working to build a new political majority across race and class.

[00:34:16] I’m rooted in a culture of belonging, safety, dignity, and freedom that can contest for governing power and also. Like and govern right as working people. 

[00:34:27] Cayden Mak: By the way, uh, congratulations on the State Supreme Court win. 

[00:34:30] Jess St. Louis: Yes. 

[00:34:32] Cayden Mak: That’s, that’s, that’s the new news today. Jefferson 

[00:34:33] Jess St. Louis: Griffin finally conceded. Yeah. 

[00:34:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah.

[00:34:36] Folks who listen to this show have been following this story with me for, 

[00:34:39] Jess St. Louis: yeah. 

[00:34:39] Cayden Mak: For a little while. 

[00:34:41] Jess St. Louis: So yes, absolutely. It’s a, I think it was a really brazen attempt at, uh, really undermining people’s belief in faith in democracy. And this is kind of where I was gonna jump in, is because I think the, there’s these big picture narratives, um, that shape so much of how we think about the world.

[00:34:59] And one of them is that government is bad, 

[00:35:02] Cayden Mak: right? And that’s a planted narrative. 

[00:35:04] Jess St. Louis: It’s a planted narrative, right? We know that’s a long-term narrative that people have seeded for a long time to be like, government is bad, corporations are the solution. 

[00:35:12] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:13] Jess St. Louis: Right? Uh, and then therefore we can defund and dismantle public institutions that benefit working people.

[00:35:22] So more corporate power has more profits, whether it’s over housing, whether it’s over public education, whether it’s over our libraries, whether it’s over our like access to mineral rights and more. 

[00:35:31] Sound on Tape: Mm. Right? 

[00:35:32] Jess St. Louis: Mm-hmm. And so I think the, I think for us exactly critical, like we, I, on the doors I see a lot of wondering and fear like will.

[00:35:46] W will we be able to make governing power work for us? 

[00:35:49] Sound on Tape: Mm. Can 

[00:35:50] Jess St. Louis: government actually work for working people? There’s a lot of like, also just like manufactured realities ’cause of how racism operates because of Sure. Racist people in governing power create the experience of like, government doesn’t work for black folks, or it doesn’t work for working class people.

[00:36:06] Right. And the, and there’s a fear around can I engage with it? And is it possible to build enough power so we can win? And then thinking about the collective part of it that you were talking about, individual versus the collective. I personally believe that sometimes there’s a narrative or a story that is impossible to do multiracial work.

[00:36:27] Sound on Tape: That it 

[00:36:27] Jess St. Louis: is not possible to build power across race, class, gender, and sexuality. 

[00:36:32] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:36:33] Jess St. Louis: Um, and that is, I think that can really, and there are good reasons for it, right? People have been burned, people have, there have been broken trust, there’s been harm that’s happened. And I think one of the really beautiful things about the Carolina Federation and Guilford for all that I’ve really lo really found.

[00:36:52] To be transformative for me is this belief that we can all lead across difference. 

[00:36:56] Sound on Tape: Hmm. 

[00:36:57] Jess St. Louis: But this, ’cause we all have a stake in the fight to win a different world of a, for a political and and economic democracy that frees everyone. Right? And so I think about that piece, what you were talking about with the tenants and the homeowners, where it’s like tenants and homeowners actually have a stake in each other’s freedom.

[00:37:15] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:37:16] Jess St. Louis: Right. I think small business owners and working class people also have a stake in each other’s freedom. That’s right. Right. And so I think if we can kind of continue to build solidarity, if we are able to really. Believe that we can build and be a majority across difference, um, where no one has to dominate or no one has to be deferential to anybody else, that we can actually be in mutual dignity with each other.

[00:37:38] We can build the kind of power we need to win. 

[00:37:40] Cayden Mak: That is very rich stuff. And you know, I think that one of the things that strikes me about that insight too is like, this is also like a political education problem, right? Like there’s a gap between the sort of like popular narrative about like. Each of our communities for ourselves and that we have to get it for ourselves versus this much more collective.

[00:38:02] Like how do we build power together and how do we figure out how we govern together? And to that, to that end, I’m curious how each of you see in your narrative work, uh, this work of political. Education, this work of political line development, um, and what that’s looked like for you. Especially, I mean, especially since the start of the year, right?

[00:38:20] Um, where people are, people are getting more active and, and getting more involved. 

[00:38:24] Jabari Mickles: Absolutely. So I would love to say that like Dream Defenders is like, as a digital strategist, I think I like, I’m thinking about how do we communicate our mission to people outside of the organization. But I think like internally.

[00:38:38] We, we’ve been working to make sure that, to your point, governance is not a question of if it can or cannot be bad. It’s all about like form following function. Right? Right. And so. I’m trying not to go on a rant, but just follow me. Alright. I’m gonna, 

[00:38:54] Cayden Mak: you can cook. You can cook here. Okay. 

[00:38:55] Jabari Mickles: Okay. I’m gonna tell you a story and then I’m gonna bring it home.

[00:38:58] When I went to Ghana, I went to a slave dungeon where I learned that the governors of those areas paid to be governors. They had to have a certain amount of money. 

[00:39:06] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:06] Jabari Mickles: They get into the office that was right above the church. Church organizes really kind of like the, the, you know, making people believe into something as they.

[00:39:16] Torture people and, and put them into cha chattel slavery. Right. Or, or put them into, uh, uh, uh, slavery by selling them to the coast corporations and bought them, sewed them to people in the United States. United States basically com, copy that system and then created chattel slavery. Our, our societal function still follows that.

[00:39:34] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:35] Jabari Mickles: And our form is just different. 

[00:39:37] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:37] Jabari Mickles: So when you think about like, how we think about our narratives and how we’re working with our political education, it is. It is important for the people who pay for elections to make it so that working class people do not have access to voting power. Right, 

[00:39:52] Sound on Tape: right.

[00:39:52] Jabari Mickles: It is important also for black people, specifically the folks who are the most exploited in this lands based on labor in a very specific contest to how we grow capital in the United States. ’cause there’s several levels of exploitation and I don’t want to compare anyone’s to someone else’s. There’s a specific type of wealth stealing black wealth is how the United States has been created.

[00:40:15] Right? And I think in our organiz organizing, when you have that as the function, without being faced forward with that in your assessment and analysis at all times, you have no ability to actually create radical change because you are still following the function that we exist in. And people do. We have to at all times be the opposition of what exists.

[00:40:39] I believe so. For political education sake, we are organizing around things, moments, and, uh, experiences that are happening right now. For example, Burkina Faso, a governance experience that is decolonial, that is, uh, investing in its, uh, social. Safety is investing in its farmers’ education, these things that are extremely fundamental to building healthy people, to build strong societies, and we are educating our working class, you know, mostly educated folks who are coming as first generation Americans or first person in their family to go to college.

[00:41:16] These overwhelmingly black and brown women who are migrant or children of migrants. We are educating ’em in these on, on this more so than even our own country’s history, because this is happening in real time and is governance outside of the European colonial function? Hmm. Right. Like this is, these, these are people trying in real time to build a governance around.

[00:41:41] Changing their, their societal relationship to their own labor. Hmm. And not making sure that European corporations are making the most dollars in ways. Every institution in the United States is making sure that the richest person in this country makes the most money over the poorest. And until we are educating folks, to me that is, we exist to end that cycle.

[00:42:04] I think that’s why dream, uh, lemme say that to me, dream Defenders is organizing folks through a political lens. That is developing them for the sake of them going out into the world and expressing that and doing political education that gets them to understand why that is the most important way we to, to, to, to ground our organizing.

[00:42:24] Cayden Mak: Amazing. Thanks. 

[00:42:26] Kamau Walton: Yeah. For, for Right to the city. Um, the, the first thing I’ll say is, is. We, we did a, a national poll on housing last year, um, and we like waited it towards younger voters, 18 to 35. Um, we did it in collaboration with popular Democracy and, um, we wanted to gauge where people were at in relation to things like rent control and social housing, which we called like, uh, government subsidized affordable housing.

[00:42:58] Um. And because we wanted to know how much work we had to do to actually move folks in, in line with these policies that we know are, are like things that our members are pushing for on the front lines as like immediate solutions as well as long-term solutions. Um, and what we came to find was actually we didn’t have that much work to do with, uh, with voters in the everyday.

[00:43:21] Folks, whether they were, um, democratic voters or Republican voters, independent or libertarian and undecided, whether they were homeowners or renters, the majority of people that we polled think that rent control makes sense is a valid solution. And if they heard, um, the folks in power speaking to those things more, they would actively support them.

[00:43:43] Hmm. Um, and that was for both rent control and social housing. Um. And with that, we are launching a, a national campaign on the 20th focused on rent control and social housing. Um, and I think the, the political education comes up for us not in. Are these solutions making sense to folks? Because coming out of that, we’re clear, like these policies and demands are not controversial.

[00:44:11] They’re actually common sense to everyday people. Mm-hmm. Um, but the housing system itself, it still needs to be dis demystified. Like the real estate system needs to be demystified. And because it is so, um. Complicated, amorphous, and because, uh, real estate lobbies and corporate landlords have really great marketing and really, really, uh, well, uh, resourced lobbyists, um.

[00:44:39] We don’t actually see what’s happening in the background. And so people think about the housing system as something that is broken that needs to be fixed. And in reality, I would argue that the housing system is working as it is designed to, to extract as much wealth as possible from working people and to hoard that wealth with those who already have most of it anyway.

[00:44:59] Yeah. Um. And so how do we name that in clear ways and actually call out the folks who are responsible and not keep putting it on the backs of renters and not position landlords, especially corporate landlords as housing providers. Right? Um, and actually name the fact that like for a lot of people, especially like looking at the LA fires rent.

[00:45:24] In that place where the rent was getting hiked, as homes were getting burned down, rent is theft in that con, in that context. Um, and in many different contexts when housing is dilapidated, when um, you know, there’s mold growing in the place, there’s a lack of pest control that’s happening. Um, there’s not air conditioning that’s working and people are, children are having heat strokes.

[00:45:48] Yeah. In homes. Um. That makes rent theft. That is what that is. People are paying to live in these deplorable conditions. Um, and so shifting the logic and the conversation around that, the what the housing system is and who concretely is responsible because we know it’s not the renters. We know it’s not working class everyday homeowners like we know it is.

[00:46:12] Corporate landlords who are trying to capitalize as much as possible, whether it’s on single family rental units or multifamily rental units, or the corporate landlords that are buying up mobile home parks and then displacing huge communities of like multiple generations of people. It is not about, uh, people not agreeing with the, the solutions that we’re putting out.

[00:46:35] It’s very much people thinking, well, this is just the way that it is and this is how it’s going to be. So for right to the city, it’s calling out who the, who the actors are that are benefiting from this system and uplifting the alternatives that we see our members doing on, on like. The national level on the local levels as well as internationally.

[00:46:55] Like we see other examples of alternative forms of housing. We see large scale examples of social housing and we need to build those out here and scale them up. And we have examples of that in some places. And so popularizing those things to help embolden people’s imaginations to get beyond the, it is what it is and I’m just gonna try to put my head down and survive.

[00:47:18] Um. It’s a thing that we’re really hoping to do as we move through this campaign. 

[00:47:24] Jess St. Louis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, there’s, I, I’m like, oh my gosh. I’m so hyped by what they all think of. I’m like dropping dream defenders place, like social media presence and like the way that y’all are doing political ed in public is so brilliant.

[00:47:40] And I think that right through the city, the, the, the clarity and the insistence on like, we’re gonna test this and we’re gonna actually contend for power while meeting, knowing that you have to meet people where the apathy or the cynicism is coming from being like, like it’s not, we’re not sure if it’s possible.

[00:47:58] I think it’s just so, it’s so important. I’m seeing much of that also play out in my work, in our work in North Carolina. Um. And so I think part of the way that I think we do political education, one of the, like being a member of Guilford for All was the first time I was involved in an organization that did endorsements for candidates.

[00:48:17] Sound on Tape: Hmm. 

[00:48:18] Jess St. Louis: And we have run like member led, like internal practicing internal democracy of being like, we’re gonna assess candidates, uh, on our platform. Right. So, which is a political, kind of political like funneling experience of being like, is someone aligned or not? And then we put it to the question of members, will we endorse them or not?

[00:48:40] And if we, if we do endorse them, that goes public. And so then what ends up happening through the process of endorsements is not only do we see voting as something that we do just individually. We learn through that process that we are the people who are, who can, can govern. Mm-hmm. We can make those decisions on who gets, who’s authorized to govern who, and then vote together as an organization, not as an individual.

[00:49:08] Right. Seeing voting and engaging in governing power that in a way as a collective action. Um, and for me that was this actually a pretty profound transformative experience for me of. Learning how to myself, like what do different functions of government do? 

[00:49:26] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:27] Jess St. Louis: How are they aligned with what we care about?

[00:49:30] What do they have the power to enact? What we, what we dream of or not? How do we be realistic? Um, and then how do we also then take our visions and aspirations for the world into a concrete political action that most people can do, which is. Like they can vote. It’s the single most done political act.

[00:49:50] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:51] Jess St. Louis: I think, and we can help Enfor use our enforcements as a narrative strategy to help people connect their values and aspirations to the political act that they, that they might already do. And build their own protagonism, build their own main character energy and be like, I’m doing this main character energy with myself as part of a whole organization.

[00:50:15] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:50:16] Jess St. Louis: We’re all main characters in driving this story. Um, and we’ve been able to make some really big wins. Um, and so I’m, but I’m also thinking about some of the narrative struggles that are coming to mind around the political education because the, one of the campaigns that we’ve been talking about is we know we need to.

[00:50:35] In Guilford County, we need to raise teacher pay. 

[00:50:39] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:40] Jess St. Louis: Um, one way of doing that is property tax. The general assembly has made things harder by being like, you can’t do progressive property taxes in North Carolina, so you can’t tax rich people more. You have to have a flat tax for everybody, which is a tool to make the process of doing taxation.

[00:51:03] Um, like. Inequitable. 

[00:51:05] Sound on Tape: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:06] Jess St. Louis: Right. We our, we were at this town hall and folks were arguing against potentially raising property taxes and the landlord’s association was organized. Mm-hmm. Because also, sometimes we forget that like our opposition also has organization that’s carrying out strategy, political line organizations, a lot of organizations and the landlord’s associations, their story was like, if you raise this.

[00:51:29] This tax, that means I’m gonna have to raise the rent on renters. Mm-hmm. And we’re the ones who care for renters. And meanwhile, me and many other people were rolling our eyes because we were like, we know you don’t care for renters and you’re just trying to use this as a justification to extract more money from working class people.

[00:51:46] Um. And that, but we also noticed that some people got scared of being like, well, if we raise property taxes, that means people’s rent will go up and that mean maybe we shouldn’t fight for it. Mm. Yeah. And that’s, I get that that’s real. That’s fear, that scarcity. ’cause it does impact people’s material condition because we don’t have the power to like disempower the landlords quite yet.

[00:52:10] Right. The landlord’s association quite yet. And so I think part of the political education is kind of being with our people inside of campaigns, through those experiences, um, helping make meaning of wins and losses. Mm-hmm. And continuing to invite each other and ourselves to remember our power, the importance of being organized and taking action together.

[00:52:33] Um. And striving for victory. 

[00:52:36] Cayden Mak: Thank you. Yeah. I, I feel like I wish we had another half hour because I’m like, these doors are so good. This stuff is so good. Um, but unfortunately we are outta time. Um, uh, thank you so much for making the time, taking your lunch hour, uh, to come chat with me, uh, and join me on the pod, Jabari Nichols.

[00:52:57] Kamal Walton. Uh, Jay St. Louis and also thank you to Shira and EVA who I think took off. Um, it’s been a real joy to be with you all, like in this space also, and like be sharing some of these stories. ’cause I feel like they’re the things that I really want organizers across the country to be thinking about right now, um, as we’re like looking to.

[00:53:19] Uh, onboard more people who are finding themselves in motion in this time and like finding the things that resonate with them. Uh, and that makes sense. Uh, you know, it’s like, I think this is a, a space that has been energizing to me. ’cause it’s just like people are making sense here and it’s really nice.

[00:53:35] It’s very refreshing. So thank you again for joining me. This show is published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. I’m Cayden Mak, and our producer is Josh Stro. Kimmy David designed our cover art Special thanks this week to Chanel Matthews and the RADCOM’s team, as well as Team Reframe and Angel and the team at Creative Transit Agency for their help in setting up this special event.

[00:53:57] If you have something to say or some feedback, you can drop me a line by sending an email to [email protected]. And if you’d like to support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment, you can become a [email protected] slash donate.

[00:54:15] Any amount, helps and makes a big impact on our very small team to continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this helps.